Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Most old school sysadmins were doing everything manually with relatively little automation. That's not true of any place I experienced in the early to late 90s. If you meant earlier, perhaps, I wasn't there. The growth of perl, for example, was in great part from the sysadmin community automating everything.
Most of the scripts I was familiar with from that time were one-offs. The code wasn't very reusable. They were automating a task on one machine. Today's "DevOps" are automating things across N machines. It is a matter of scale.
We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS
341–350 of 355 posts
Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS
#342Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're conflating an IT Technician and a Sysadmin. Sysadmins automate their work. Operations Engineer is just another title for sysadmin. Systems Engineer is also another title for the same thing. Platform Engineering (depending on where you are) is yet another variation. If you're responsible for the operating system, monitoring, clustering, hardware etc; then you're firmly in "sysadmin" land.
This whole string of conversation is some of the most horrendous navel gazing I've had in my comments for a while.
Pedantry is requisite.
Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS
#343Earlier quoted context omitted.
> have to hire But [to state the obvious but sometimes overlooked] you don't just point an AWS account at the company git repo and walk away. There's a lot of work and expertise needed to keep AWS setup up and running, so you already have to hire people. At a modest size startup we already have close to ten people DevOps team to manage AWS. That same size team could easily keep bare metal servers running. At our scal…
Agreed. I was doing some unrelated research yesterday and stumbled upon the fact that apparently (in Australia) 41% of companies see an increase in IT staff after adopting cloud services. [1] I thought this was pretty weird since the original value proposition (AFAIR) was to reduce costs/head count. But everywhere I’ve worked that used AWS, had specialists employed to manage AWS. And I think the value proposition is…
Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
> (...) an Operations Engineer (...) An operations engineer and a sysadmin are two entirely different roles. A system administrator administers systems while an operations engineer dedicated their time writing code to automate processes.
You're conflating an IT Technician and a Sysadmin. Sysadmins automate their work. Operations Engineer is just another title for sysadmin. Systems Engineer is also another title for the same thing. Platform Engineering (depending on where you are) is yet another variation. If you're responsible for the operating system, monitoring, clustering, hardware etc; then you're firmly in "sysadmin" land.
So do janitors. What's your point?
> Operations Engineer is just another title for sysadmin.
It really isn't. That makes as much sense as claiming that DevOps is just a sysadmin that's also a developer.
Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS
#345Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There are hosting providers like Hetzner that will rent you bare metal machines so you don't have to deal with actual hardware, their networking is basically unmetered (last I checked), they will also sell you spot VMs, blob storage service, etc. The pricing difference is in integer multiples and much less "gotchas" or lock-in (they are usually dumbed down). If all you need is bare metal, you don't care about netwo…
>This even covers basic things: for example, look at all of the reports of Hetzner customers losing data due to something like a drive failure. It's not like there isn't a way to deal with that yourself but now you're in the business of monitoring the drives, setting up software RAID and testing/benchmarking it to make sure your configuration is robust, scheduling downtime to reflash servers with storage updates foll…
k8s doesn't mean you don't care about data integrity or performance, and if you don't build and debug more automation yourself dealing with failures creates more manual labor recovering from them. Again, you can definitely do that yourself but it adds time commitments which blow the cost savings away unless you are running at least hundreds servers to have the savings exceed the staff cost.
> Again cattle not pets.
That's an orthogonal concern — neither environment will prevent you from treating servers as pets, and not having things like auto-scaling or higher-level service abstractions definitely encourages pet servers because the overhead of managing a full server and improving utilization adds up.
> But that's what I am saying - going "all in on Hetzner" doesn't really mean much if you're using dumb blocks available elsewhere (plain container/VM hosting, network object storage).
Actually, it does for the reasons I mentioned before. If you care about reliability, performance, security, etc. you're not just picking any random hoster around the world — you have to spend time selecting vendors, signing contracts, getting set up with their environment and tools, etc. Again, that's totally possible and there's a break-even point where those costs are canceled out by lower service costs but it's higher than people typically assume.
> (plain container/VM hosting, network object storage)
This is true but also means you need to factor in the cost of greater maintenance commitments and lower productivity.
Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS
#346Earlier quoted context omitted.
What does your product offer over what Sovereign Cloud Stack (See https://scs.community/ ) already offers? (And before anyone falsely claims no commercial offers for this exist yet: https://www.plusserver.com/en/products/pluscloud-open [no affiliation])
Our solution targets the physical network in off-cloud, edge and distributed cloud use cases. The physical network is most likely the absolute root of trust and attestation. Physical devices gain their personalities from what network they are connected to. Physical networking is still the biggest impediment to operating on-prem infrastructure. You need to hire very expensive engineers, deal with a bizarre purchasing…
Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're conflating an IT Technician and a Sysadmin. Sysadmins automate their work. Operations Engineer is just another title for sysadmin. Systems Engineer is also another title for the same thing. Platform Engineering (depending on where you are) is yet another variation. If you're responsible for the operating system, monitoring, clustering, hardware etc; then you're firmly in "sysadmin" land.
> Sysadmins automate their work. So do janitors. What's your point? > Operations Engineer is just another title for sysadmin. It really isn't. That makes as much sense as claiming that DevOps is just a sysadmin that's also a developer.
Many "operations engineers" are actually sysadmins. Many "devops" are really sysadmins also doing development.
Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wonder could micro-services be the solution? Run some of your micro-services on AWS and another on Azure etc. A given micro-service then might be highly dependent on AWS but the part of your application that uses those micro-services would not know anything about internals of AWS etc.
Perhaps if you're trying to get the best products from each cloud, but I doubt this would be worth it. For each cloud you are going to need to establish: accounts, payment, access control, continuous deployment, geographical locality of their DCs, distributed logging, billing (and watch out for egress costs!), etc... I cannot imagine the added complexity of doing this would overcome the benefits of doing everything w…
SEE also: https://levelup.gitconnected.com/how-we-reduced-our-annual-s...
Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
In most businesses I've worked in: developer costs >> infrastructure costs An AWS large server is around $500/year, which is about 1-2 developer hours (with taxes, overhead, etc) at the cost scales last time I priced this out. That's crazy expensive in the absolute, but if it saves a couple of hours, it makes sense. PaaS providers cost even more. I've gone with those in the past, since it basically eliminated dev-ops…
I consider this a fallacy. I´m on the dedicated server camp, but had to use AWS in a "everything in cloud" company. I spend way more time with Lambda/Cloud formation/ECS shenanigans than the terraform recipe I use in dedicated servers. And this is not even considering the higher latency between services and how hard is to debug it. In your case, you are not exchanging 2 hours of a developer for a higher bill. In my e…
The massive number of proprietary newer services are junk, with the exception of some of the ML services. The ML services are sometimes helpful, but I expect they'll quickly be obsoleted.
Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS
#350Earlier quoted context omitted.
> At what point do you have the time/money/confidence to invest goodness knows how much in a data centre with space to grow, to purchase an enormous amount of capital to have it all installed etc. the building alone could eat that first years saving easily. Co-locating has no capital investment other than hardware, and is pretty cheap. A 40U rack of compute charged as equivalent ec2 instances has a retail price easil…
I feel that a lot of posts like this might be under-representing the true costs of running your own hardware. I was only tangentially associated with a large-ish operation and I can tell you that there are loads of things that take a lot of time but are often over looked. Things like detecting and replacing bad hardware. HDs don't last forever and when they go bad it's not fun; especially if you have to source some s…