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Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

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Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#341

Post by ZeroGravitas »

AnonCoward42 wrote: post #269
locallost wrote: post #211

I read the whole thread. At one point he goes on and on how France is shaky because their nuclear plants are offline caused by corrosion issues etc. On the very next tweet he blasts Germany for prematurely shutting down "the most reliable energy source nuclear". Well if they're reliable, why is France in this world of hurt right now? I agree about one thing, and that it really is a perfect storm of issues, and that t…

> The part about renewables requiring trillions in investment to replace nuclear I didn't get at all - they're the cheapest possible solution. The problem with renewable energies in Germany is that we do not have (or can't get?) enough water power plants. Solar energy doesn't really work at all, because energy is also needed at night and wind energy is also not very reliable. To compensate for this you need even more…

The idea was to build offshore wind farms, but there was a lot of complaining about "subsidies" from the right so the government effectively blocked them. Imagine if offshore wind had been being built by Germany (and all the other EU nations that fell for the same BS) at full speed since 2012.

We'd have a lot more cheaper power and a lot less Government subsidies.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#342

Post by jopsen »

maCDzP wrote: post #310
jopsen wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They wanted to have domestic and EU-pricing. But would it be legal? That kind of protectionism would definitely run counter to the ideals if the EU common market. It's hard to know what EU countries might do, but during covid the EU avoided protectionism when it came to vaccines. Of course, it could be different this time.

Good question – I agree it would run counter the common market. If I remember correctly that was one of the main arguments against the left's solution. The counter argument was that other countries are already doing this or planning on doing it. I believe some parties in Italy has talked about putting a price cap on electricity and gas. But the same applies to them – is it legal? It doesn't create good incentives whe…

Also, if there really is s scarcity of electricity, then every country subsidizing it won't help.

That said, to some extend it might just be more expensive LNG that dictates the price -- maybe there is sufficient electricity at a high price point.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#343

Post by jopsen »

rightbyte wrote: post #278
jopsen wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They wanted to have domestic and EU-pricing. But would it be legal? That kind of protectionism would definitely run counter to the ideals if the EU common market. It's hard to know what EU countries might do, but during covid the EU avoided protectionism when it came to vaccines. Of course, it could be different this time.

> It's hard to know what EU countries might do, but during covid the EU avoided protectionism when it came to vaccines. There was A LOT of backstabbing in the beginning regarding medical supplies. Landlocked countries got screwed in transit. Even Red Cross aid was confiscated. Thankfully the panic only lasted about one two weeks or something.

Yeah, collaboration around covid was perhaps a bit easier to force, because no country could do a vaccine on its own (including production, packaging, etc).

But in this case Sweden and Norway probably could do electricity without supplies from the European grid. But they might not want to be as unreliable partners as Russia turned out to be...

If you void contracts and begin backstabbing when things get hard, people won't trust you in the future.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#344

Post by trasz »

cloutchaser wrote: post #184
phicoh wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key thing to remember is that Russia reduced the gas supply to Europe already one year ago. Way before they invaded Ukraine, and therefor before any of the recent sanctions. It is assumed that Russia sent a warning message to EU countries not to interfere. Fortunately, most EU countries recognized that Russia was no longer a reliable supplier. And imposed sanctions, delivered weapons anyhow. Russia thought they c…

I think you are reading way too many one sided sources. The Russians are selling more to China and India since the war. The higher price of gas means in the short run they are making more money. Yes, some sanctions might be annoying, in the way a mosquito is annoying to you, but basically nothing europe has done has really had an impact. (Most weapons have come from the US). So while parts of what you say is true, fr…

Not sure about India, but China is buying the gas at prices way below market rate, likely at loss - because Russia has no other choice but to give them whatever they want, simply to stay relevant. Which means, the more they sell, the more they lose.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#345

Post by glenstein »

tuatoru wrote: post #340
kennend3 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is also "pro-nuclear" it is upsetting to see this take place. The "anti-nuclear" camp has won, but based on what sort of logical argument? Fear? what about Chernobyl? It is one thing to be "anti-nuclear" but they failed to provide alternatives. "WIND" or "Solar" is not going to replace 3,500 MW of nuclear power without damaging a LOT of land. Now millions face rolling blackouts and energy shortages whe…

> "WIND" or "Solar" is not going to replace 3,500 MW of nuclear power without damaging a LOT of land. Well, let's see. Wind uses negligible land if incorporated onto farms, so I'll assume it's all solar. Nuclear capacity factor (fraction of the time it's operating): 0.9, call it 100%. PV capacity factor 0.2 PV nameplate panel production per square metre 200W PV land coverage fraction (access paths beside PV panels ta…

TY for explaining this. I would not have made the point as well as you have, but the "solar + wind is inefficient use of land" argument is an old debunked talking point that has been around for decades.

Like you say, wind can be co-located on farms or other areas that are not otherwise economically useful, with minimal environmental obstruction. Something on the order of 99.99% of the acreage occupied by windmills can continue to be used for other purposes. Solar panels can also be efficiently and thoughtfully located.

Of course, they can also be located poorly as well but it's not something that's like definitionally baked into the technology, it's a matter of having good policy about siting.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#347

Post by ideamotor »

kennend3 wrote: post #315
Gwypaas wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because no one proposes solar in the north European winter. It's all about the geographically decoupled off shore wind. For the cost see for example: https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-...

I assume you find the "subsidized wind" prices attractive? Who pays the subsidies?

Maybe google some actual research papers on this and other energy policy questions? But what do I know.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#348

Post by deevolution »

Gwypaas wrote: post #241
kennend3 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is also "pro-nuclear" it is upsetting to see this take place. The "anti-nuclear" camp has won, but based on what sort of logical argument? Fear? what about Chernobyl? It is one thing to be "anti-nuclear" but they failed to provide alternatives. "WIND" or "Solar" is not going to replace 3,500 MW of nuclear power without damaging a LOT of land. Now millions face rolling blackouts and energy shortages whe…

Simply cost. If the plants started in the early 2000s would have been delivered on time and budget they would be a huge part of the transition today. Now nuclear costs 3-5x more compared to renewables and is simply not relevant. > "WIND" or "Solar" is not going to replace 3,500 MW of nuclear power without damaging a LOT of land. If land use is what you measure impact based on a much better target is the beef industry…

> "Now nuclear costs 3-5x more compared to renewables and is simply not relevant."

We're seeing the hidden cost of renewable energy now, aren't we? Cheap because it's supplemented with natural gas to provide base load. If the politicians actually cared about the climate, they would be adamant about supplementing with nuclear, which is far far more energy dense.

https://xkcd.com/1162/

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#349

Post by arvonle »

locallost wrote: post #211

I read the whole thread. At one point he goes on and on how France is shaky because their nuclear plants are offline caused by corrosion issues etc. On the very next tweet he blasts Germany for prematurely shutting down "the most reliable energy source nuclear". Well if they're reliable, why is France in this world of hurt right now? I agree about one thing, and that it really is a perfect storm of issues, and that t…

Numerous French nuclear plants are past due date but their lifespans have been extended beyond their expected lifespans for what looks to me like political and economic reasons - instead of building new ones in time to handle the transition.

I do not know what the intersection is with the set of reactors that had to be shut down. One must understand that EDF is under immense pressure as an underfunded public provider, as it is forced to comply with price regulations (out of its own pockets as the government owes it a lot of money that curiously fails to be paid back), provides electricity at a discount to other European countries - someone has to compensate for Germany's plant closures - and private providers - which do not produce anyhting, they buy power at a discount from EDF then resell it to French people at a markup et voilà. EDF is also bound by law to buy solar energy produced by homes for a higher price than they end up selling it later on.

Basically my argument is that this might have less to do with the reliability of nuclear energy and more with how the EU, the govt and private parties rip EDF off while leaving it with no option as to what to do with its aging nuclear park.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#350

Post by nix23 »

sschueller wrote: post #322
nix23 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can thank CERN for that and the mirror-black-hole they created ;)

I guess we are the hole in the "Swiss Cheese" or for non-Americans; Emmentaler that is Europe.

Spanish cheese has much more holes...but smaller ;)
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