Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#341

Post by shadowgovt » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 2:09 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #332

rayiner wrote: post #311

I attended TJ, back when it was about 30% Asian. I’ve always felt like the school should do more to get more underrepresented minorities. I’ve found the recent efforts very off-putting however. It’s based on a modern strain of social justice ideology that adopts some very ugly assumptions about Asians. I’m reminded of Alison Collins in San Francisco, who called Asians “house n—-ers” and said they use “white supremaci…

I really can’t wrap my head around an argument that amounts to “that person only succeeded on the test because they put in the time and effort to learn the material and their hard work is the primary thing that separated their performance from this other person; if that other person would have tried, they could have done just as well; that’s not a meritocracy!”

It's more that the other person doesn't get the chance to try because nobody is footing the bill for their test prep.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#342

Post by pessimizer » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 2:09 PM UTC

x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #94

tyjen wrote: post #80

I'm a confused by the equity claim to justify discriminatory behavior with what seems like heavy emphasis on race. It seems difficult to achieve equity without transparent, and standardized methods emphasizing a holistic assessment covering visible and invisible, immutable and mutable characteristics--each of which impact individual outcomes. I understand that tackling overrepresentation and underrepresentation is im…

> The racial categories are a very American centric and limited term, and arguably rooted largely as social constructs that loosely define the ethnic populations they cover. For example, and I don't mean any offense or to call any group out specifically, Koreans are overrepresented compared to Cambodians at the academic institutions listed in the article per their population proportion. This doesn't seem to be captur…

While Asians not being fungible has something to say about individuality (although not much), I don't know what it has to do with "intersectionality." It's very difficult to be Cambodian yet not Asian. Being both Asian and Cambodian is not an "intersection."

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#343

Post by cwal37 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 2:10 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #311

I attended TJ, back when it was about 30% Asian. I’ve always felt like the school should do more to get more underrepresented minorities. I’ve found the recent efforts very off-putting however. It’s based on a modern strain of social justice ideology that adopts some very ugly assumptions about Asians. I’m reminded of Alison Collins in San Francisco, who called Asians “house n—-ers” and said they use “white supremaci…

> But it’s a few thousand dollars if that (as low as under $1,000) which is reachable to all but destitute families.

I live in Arlington, so not Fairfax, but in a neighborhood that borders Fairfax (and not really that far away from TJ either). The median household income for our census tract was about a 3rd of the county's average, ~$40k vs ~$120k when I looked into it a few years back. Which is also indicative of the Fairfax areas around me. It's not like America has much in the way of generic social support to make it easier for folks like that to spend a couple thousand on some extra tutoring, plus the cost here is higher because there are so many affluent folks to drive up the price of a tutor. This also isn't a small number of people, it's a really dense area down here relative to other parts of Northern Virginia (including parts with substantially better transit access and more walkable communities).

Northern Virginia has some pretty unique pockets, my zip code is one of the most diverse in the entire country[0], and a bit south of me in Fairfax is the only other one Virginia has in the top 100, but also quite a bit of poverty in those same unique areas. Idk, I just wouldn't paint with such a broad brush, when I know very few folks on my block with kids could just spend a few thousand on extra tutoring.

[0]https://medium.com/@waldoch/measuring-neighborhood-diversity...

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#344

Post by mc32 » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 2:13 PM UTC

Miner49er wrote: post #336

rayiner wrote: post #311

I attended TJ, back when it was about 30% Asian. I’ve always felt like the school should do more to get more underrepresented minorities. I’ve found the recent efforts very off-putting however. It’s based on a modern strain of social justice ideology that adopts some very ugly assumptions about Asians. I’m reminded of Alison Collins in San Francisco, who called Asians “house n—-ers” and said they use “white supremaci…

> And they act like the cost makes it unattainable for anyone else. But it’s a few thousand dollars if that (as low as under $1,000) which is reachable to all but destitute families This strikes me as extremely out of touch. I would think this cost is unattainable for a large chunk of American families. If it were true, and the cost was so clearly worth it, then why isn't every kid in America doing test prep?

What’s more important to get a kid, a new iPhone or some education?

Americans mostly don’t do after school reinforcement education because it’s not in our culture —unlike Asian cultures where buxibans are pretty much the rule. People will putt around in very old cars which need replacement in order to afford being able to send their kids to after school classes.

We’d rather get new sneakers, iPhones or whatever else peer pressure tells us to do.

Our pop culture reinforces the “be a dope” stereotype as cool and the studious kids as “nerdy”. That’s all you need to know.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#345

Post by Miner49er » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 2:13 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #332

rayiner wrote: post #311

I attended TJ, back when it was about 30% Asian. I’ve always felt like the school should do more to get more underrepresented minorities. I’ve found the recent efforts very off-putting however. It’s based on a modern strain of social justice ideology that adopts some very ugly assumptions about Asians. I’m reminded of Alison Collins in San Francisco, who called Asians “house n—-ers” and said they use “white supremaci…

I really can’t wrap my head around an argument that amounts to “that person only succeeded on the test because they put in the time and effort to learn the material and their hard work is the primary thing that separated their performance from this other person; if that other person would have tried, they could have done just as well; that’s not a meritocracy!”

It's pretty simple. A lot of kids don't have an opportunity to put in the time and effort. Some of them still do well despite this, and that shows they have great potential if given the opportunity.

Taking life challenges and starting points into account is more of a meritocracy, because you are accounting for the difficulty they had to get to where they are.

For example, say you have two kids with the same high SAT score. One kid has been given every chance to succeed - test prep, rich parents, best schools money can buy. The other kid was raised by a single parent in a poor neighborhood at a bad public school with no test prep or anything like that. They have to work a job to support their family. On paper they have the same score, but the 2nd kid clearly has more merit, in my opinion. They would likely surpass the other kid if given the same privileges they had.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#346

Post by SyzygistSix » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #68

woodruffw wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't have to be a genius to imagine why you can't admit 100 million students into a particular school. You don't admit 100 million students to an excellent school. You make 1 million excellent schools and admit 100 students to each. There is no reason for there to be a scarcity of excellent education in our wealthy, developed country. I support actions that make the world a more just place in the Rawlsian sens…

>There is no reason for there to be a scarcity of excellent education in our wealthy, developed country. I'm under the impression that at least for undergraduate education, your average StateU is probably on par with the best name brand colleges. Most of the value of going to a selective school is the signaling/branding aspect, not necessarily the education itself (although it still might be above average). When cons…

It is also networking and exposure to a faculty and student body that ideally passes on the very rare, ineffable, and valuable quality where they have the sense that anything is possible and the world can be changed. State schools have less exposure to this. Whether it is actually valuable and transmissible I don't know.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#347

Post by shadowgovt » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

someguydave wrote: post #333

insickness wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're saying that we should allow individuals and companies to create their own identity policies free from government oversight, then we should allow individuals and companies to discriminate any way they want. Don't want to hire blacks, gays or Jews? Allowed. To be honest, there is a legitimate argument that this type of discrimination would be better handled through the free market. But I doubt the people who…

In fact the Constitution insists on allowing exactly this kind of discrimination in the assembly clause of the first amendment.

The freedom of assembly is specifically the freedom that was curtailed by the Civil Rights Act.

Legally, it should be added... The freedom protected in the first amendment is the freedom of political assembly. The Civil Rights Act has been argued repeatedly in the Supreme Court, and the court has ruled repeatedly that the constitutionally protected freedom of assembly is not curtailed by requiring corporations, incorporated under the rules of the state, to be required to serve everyone in the protected classes.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#348

Post by ericd » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

Miner49er wrote: post #336

rayiner wrote: post #311

I attended TJ, back when it was about 30% Asian. I’ve always felt like the school should do more to get more underrepresented minorities. I’ve found the recent efforts very off-putting however. It’s based on a modern strain of social justice ideology that adopts some very ugly assumptions about Asians. I’m reminded of Alison Collins in San Francisco, who called Asians “house n—-ers” and said they use “white supremaci…

> And they act like the cost makes it unattainable for anyone else. But it’s a few thousand dollars if that (as low as under $1,000) which is reachable to all but destitute families This strikes me as extremely out of touch. I would think this cost is unattainable for a large chunk of American families. If it were true, and the cost was so clearly worth it, then why isn't every kid in America doing test prep?

Because it’s hard? It requires forcing your kid to do something they probably don’t want to when you’re likely already exhausted from the other demands of staying afloat, especially if you’re a single parent.

But reasonable test prep is very obviously obtainable from a monetary perspective. My own SAT prep was mostly a $20 workbook, and my score improved immensely by the third practice test. Even $1,000 can be achieved if it’s made the top priority besides food/shelter. And my impression is that for many Asians, that’s where the priority sits.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#349

Post by scarmig » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

Miner49er wrote: post #345

sokoloff wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really can’t wrap my head around an argument that amounts to “that person only succeeded on the test because they put in the time and effort to learn the material and their hard work is the primary thing that separated their performance from this other person; if that other person would have tried, they could have done just as well; that’s not a meritocracy!”

It's pretty simple. A lot of kids don't have an opportunity to put in the time and effort. Some of them still do well despite this, and that shows they have great potential if given the opportunity. Taking life challenges and starting points into account is more of a meritocracy, because you are accounting for the difficulty they had to get to where they are. For example, say you have two kids with the same high SAT…

There's always a lot of weird circumlocutions around "merit" and "opportunity."

In NYC, the poverty rate is higher among Asians than among African Americans or Latinos. In what way do the latter groups have "less opportunity"? Is it simply that Asian kids only succeed because they cheat by studying more?

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#350

Post by Kharvok » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

People find the truth that standardized testing and school placement is mostly expressive of IQ uncomfortable. IQ is mostly genetic. When this doesn't evenly distribute across people groups people find it problematic. Again, this truth is uncomfortable.

North east Asians in the US at or below the poverty line score better on average on the SAT than African-Americans from households with incomes above 100k. If there was a socioeconomic lever to pull we should pull it. The evidence says there is not.

Look it up.

I don't think we can create true equitable solutions until we get past these myths that everyone is just the right environmental conditions away from high academic achievement.