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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

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Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#341

Post by croo »

meerita wrote: post #273
ogig wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

So you're saying you're ok eating dumber animals and leave the intelligent ones alive. Interesting…

I guess it's a question of when does your moral kicks in and makes you feel bad about the kill.

I've seen and participated both in killing of pig and chicken. Multiple pigs are always a problem that needs to be addressed as they go crazy when they hear the first one die. When you kill a chicken and bleed it out to the ground the other chickens come to pick the blood and totally incapable of realizing the same fate will come to them.

Even lower are insects like a wasp. If you cut its head it will try to eat it then when that fails it grabs it's own head and fly it to home because its second algorithm is called "gather food". I'm not even sure you can call this "intelligence".

I have serious problems killing pigs and I would never attempt one because it feels wrong. But chickens are dumb man, I don't have any problems killing and eating them whatsoever.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#342

Post by sweetheart »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #219
Azek wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A non-obvious issue here is that often these animals are sent to slaughter around 12-24 months when they can live happily up to 25 years.

Do they actually live 25 years in the wild on average? My understanding was that wild animals have dramatically shorter lives than the same animals in captivity, as a general rule. The exact difference varies from species to species but typically the lifespan would be around half.

Whether a wolf would kill a cow before its 25 years old doesn’t affect our moral duty to not kill animals unnecessarily and prematurely.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#343

Post by Ntrails »

atdrummond wrote: post #279
ogig wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

I am mainly a vegetarian, although I will eat ethically raised eggs and dairy products. I grew up in farm country and will also, on a very rare occasion, eat cattle raised on a proper farm/ranch - even though I absolutely love cows, who can be extremely affectionate, I believe they can be slaughtered relatively humanely. Cephalopods, on the other hand, are extremely difficult to farm in the wild or cull. They show im…

> I grew up in farm country and will also, on a very rare occasion, eat cattle raised on a proper farm/ranch - even though I absolutely love cows, who can be extremely affectionate, I believe they can be slaughtered relatively humanely.

I agree that eg Cattle can have a good life living on pastoral land eating grass and so on. Can be slaughtered humanely close to home. That meat born, raised and slaughtered all within 20-30 miles of the consumer can be relatively low impact.

I'd quite like to only eat meat matching that description. I'd also like to minimise my food miles overall. But honestly it's not trivial to even approach the problem when eating out. Even the supermarket makes for a long slow shopping process looking for anything fresh that hasn't been flown in.

I am simply too lazy to be good about this, so outside of weekends when I have time to go to a butcher or a farm shop... well I'm part of the problem

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#344

Post by kodah »

jamiek88 wrote: post #233
kodah wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a way, it applies to dogs too. I have the privilege of giving my dog a way out of pain: I can put them down. That decision rests with me, and ultimately, one day, I will have to make it. I may choose every day to feed my dog the best diet I can afford, I'll give her massages, I'll snuggle her, care for her when she's sick, but ultimately, one day, I know I will have the choice to spare her the pain of dying a pain…

One of my great regrets in life so far is shirking that responsibility and selfishly allowing a dog to last too long. I’ve learned from it and since had to make that decision again and actually made a decision this time but the guilt remains. It’s a dreadful responsibility.

> allowing a dog to last too long

I felt this way with the first dog I raised outside of my parents house. Things were slow but fast. One day I found a boil on her neck, rushed her to the hospital only to walk out with no answers a mountain of bills. I spent months seeking more answers with new testing. She was still the same old dog, playing with my other dog constantly. She'd do silly things, demand walks and pets, and stomp/parade around the house with her toys. I begged every night that she make it to her tenth birthday. She did, then shortly after her birthday she'd struggle to eat for days at a time and was acting sleepy. On the third day I brought her to the vet and did the deed.

It still hurts remembering her sleepily lay in my lap one last time and watching the life quietly slip away. That was the life I nurtured and the life that guided me to be more of a man every day. A life that demanded evolution and growth out of me in the most compassionate way possible. The vet felt her stomach and said, "Her liver is covered in tumors. You did the right thing." Then I began to reflect; had I been selfish? When I found the boil, was that when I should've done it? What about after all the testing? What about when she'd protest her food for a day? Two? Inevitably, I decided somehow the magical number was three.

The only thing that gives me solace is that I consulted the vet constantly on when was the right time. She'd never directly answered me; that choice was mine, a choice I absolutely feared. The advice that sticks out was, "When the dog you know stops being the dog you know." I know in my life I'll have to do this again and I don't think it'll ever get any easier. There's no right answers to this intersection of life, only wrong and less wrong ones. Love is a very tricky thing, especially with a friend that can't say much.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#345

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

marliechiller wrote: post #308
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they actually live 25 years in the wild on average? My understanding was that wild animals have dramatically shorter lives than the same animals in captivity, as a general rule. The exact difference varies from species to species but typically the lifespan would be around half.

source of that general rule?

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/286147

The general rule was my own synthesis from what little I know of this subject. This study is one of the main sources I used to drive my current understanding. You can also try this search term: "do wild animals die of old age?"

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#346

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

sweetheart wrote: post #342
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they actually live 25 years in the wild on average? My understanding was that wild animals have dramatically shorter lives than the same animals in captivity, as a general rule. The exact difference varies from species to species but typically the lifespan would be around half.

Whether a wolf would kill a cow before its 25 years old doesn’t affect our moral duty to not kill animals unnecessarily and prematurely.

Perhaps not under your preferred moral system. But yours is not the only moral system. It should be obvious that there are plenty of moral systems where counterfactuals do indeed affect the morality of actions (e.g. any utilitarian system or compound system with a utilitarian component).

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#347

Post by 4ggr0 »

pibechorro wrote: post #332
4ggr0 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get where you are coming from, but I want to discuss one thing you mentioned. You decided to stop eating octopus, because they're very smart animals. Which is understandable to me. But why do you decide what animals to eat, based on how intelligent they seem to us? If we turn that argument around, it's okay to eat an animal if its 'dumb'. Why is that so? To show my perspective, I am becoming more vegetarian…

I eat all animals, octopus is delicious. What I do practice is compassion and respect for when I do, going out of my way to ensure it was done so in as an ethical and sustainable way as possible. Much of my protein these days I catch myself.

> compassion and respect

I hope the long-dead animal on your plate will be able to appreciate your compassion and respect ;)

> ethical and sustainable way

How would you describe ethical and sustainable meat production, or in other words, what qualifies as ethical and sustainable for you?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#348

Post by 4ggr0 »

buddhistdude wrote: post #334
4ggr0 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get where you are coming from, but I want to discuss one thing you mentioned. You decided to stop eating octopus, because they're very smart animals. Which is understandable to me. But why do you decide what animals to eat, based on how intelligent they seem to us? If we turn that argument around, it's okay to eat an animal if its 'dumb'. Why is that so? To show my perspective, I am becoming more vegetarian…

Maybe it’s based on the assumption that more complex organisms are more sensitive and thus the suffering that is experienced is bigger.

Could be, yes. Although I do wonder if the average octopus suffers more when being killed than the average cow. If so, then I wonder if that relates to intelligence or to other factors. Structure of nerves etc.

If an octopus wasn't able to feel anything, it would again be okay to eat it? Or if it was sedated before killing it, would that change anything?

Lots of open questions I guess, but I'm just brainstorming a bit :)

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#349

Post by janto »

laumars wrote: post #238
cjonas wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a more equal comparison would be an adolescence to mature human... So 12-18 years? Food, shelter & protection provided? Blissfully unaware of my predetermined fate? And if they don't eat me, I never exist in the first place? I'd opt to be eaten. Just seems like the aliens would be better off eating cows...

I’m not a vegetarian and I still really hate that “if I wasn’t farmed I wouldn’t exist at all” argument because it’s really just an excuse to be shitty to other life forms. The fact is if you didn’t exist then you wouldn’t care either way, so it’s a moot argument. The fact that you do exist changes that, not excuses it. Or in other words: we are not doing other species a favour by eating them. It’s also worth noting…

If farming result in the existence of happy animals then the process definitely favors them. If it results in their unhappy existence then it does not favor them.

The argument around doing them the favor of providing them existence relies on them having a nice life, until the day we eat them. It sounds like you are opposed to them coming into existence because it means they exist in existential agony.

Also that physical agony is a near certainty, by your last paragraph. But that does not seem to be the core of your objection.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#350

Post by sweetheart »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #346
sweetheart wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether a wolf would kill a cow before its 25 years old doesn’t affect our moral duty to not kill animals unnecessarily and prematurely.

Perhaps not under your preferred moral system. But yours is not the only moral system. It should be obvious that there are plenty of moral systems where counterfactuals do indeed affect the morality of actions (e.g. any utilitarian system or compound system with a utilitarian component).

What moral belief system posits that it is moral to do something simply because someone else would do it?

Does anyone actual subscribe to such a belief? Do you?

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