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More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

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Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#341

Post by pkage »

epistasis wrote: post #56
ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

I've heard tales of people with interest rates of 7%+ on student loans, and the official rates are not incredibly low either: https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/loans/interest-r... Any loan that is charging 6.28% interest and also cant be discharged by bankruptcy is just usury with current interest rates.

I recall that in 2016 First Marblehead (now Cognition Financial) was offering interest rates of up to 13% (!) and averaging 11% (!!) on NYU tuition ($60k/yr for a 4 year degree). I recall during my application that they were very heavily pushing for me to finance my degree there. Thankfully, I went elsewhere.

The chair of NYU's Board of Trustees at the time was William Berkley. Perhaps coincidentally, he also headed the board of First Marblehead. I'm sure there was no conflict of interest, though.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#342

Post by fnord77 »

VikingCoder wrote: post #169
bagacrap wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

Here's what I don't get - Where the hell is the money _going_? Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money? Are they publicly traded and distributing dividends? Are they building rockets? I know some of it goes back to financial aid, and some goes to football coaches... But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I just can't visualize where it's going.

there's been a proliferation of administrators in colleges. the ratio of administrators to professors/instructors has been steadily climbing since the 70s.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#343

Post by honkycat »

Neoliberalism at its finest. Trim the fat until you cut into the bone. And we wonder why we have a staffing crisis in our medical field!

This is BAD. NEWS. for us Americans. How are we supposed to compete on an international scale if we are not training the next generation of knowledge workers[0]?

Part of the thing I always hated about Uni is that it felt very... kamikaze. You have one shot. I had to work during the day and go to school at night and going an extra year was NOT an option for me. It sucked to be on the hook for so much money when society didn't really make any room for me to actually learn and excel in that environment.

I suppose you could join the military. However, the military isn't for everyone. I don't know if would have had the mental fortitude to make it. Also, you lose out on some extremely productive years.

I know a lot of ex-soldiers who have severe disabilities, both mental and physical, from their time in training / on the field. Also, forcing everyone who wants to go into higher education into a propaganda mill isn't exactly a great idea either.

Also, the military doesn't just give you a credit card to go to any school you want. I had friends in school who struggled with the gi-bill system.

0: A term I an loathe to use, because I do not think other work is "dumb work", but it is a useful short-hand for workers who are working in jobs that require advanced education.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#344

Post by archy_ »

HWR_14 wrote: post #130
bagacrap wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition would become cheaper. However that does unfairly im…

It's not just loans, it's COVID. If I were college-age and I were planning on going to college I would certainly do one of two things. I would postpone college until the COVID issues died down -or- I would use the fewer applicants to get into a more prestigious school banking on a better 3 year experience (out of 4) starting in the fall of 2022 and more impressive degree going forward. Either way, I can imagine admit…

This makes a lot of sense. I took a couple online classes when I was in college, and despite my efforts, I definitely didn't learn as much as I would have otherwise. THere's something about someone telling you something in person that makes it easier for my brain to absorb, even if it's in a giant lecture hall and you don't go to office hours. I can recall accounting principles (taken in person) far better than material from my project management class (taken online). I took the former for an easy minor and never use what I learned, but the latter has proven much more important in my career, yet I managed to forget it all.

And my online classes were explicitly taken online, with professors who had done online stuff before, not hastily moved online in the midst of a pandemic. Knowing how computer-averse some of my professors were, I can only imagine the transition to online was rough, and I bet I'd be scared away from online classes in college if I had to go through high school like that, even if I got a full ride.

And, as others have said, going to college isn't just for the degree. Yes, that's a big part of it (the expensive piece of paper at the end), but just being able to be away from your parents really helps you grow up and become independent.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#345

Post by DerArzt »

granshaw wrote: post #334
jimmyjazz14 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the first two are problems colleges need to fix I think its more of a matter that we need to change our mindset about who should be attending college maybe some people would be better off going the trade school route.

Part of the problem is the social stigma of not having a college degree. Not sure how to fix that

Step one would be to re-asses what happens in highschools. I remember a decade ago when I was in highschool we had to do college prep stuff mandated by the state government that all but said that College was the only route.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#346

Post by coolso »

stinkytaco wrote: post #17
pacbard wrote: post #11

This is probably related to teenagers enrolling in college not only for an education but also for the amenities that come with college life (think of greek life, moving away from parents, college sports, freedom to explore your identity, etc.) The pandemic has put a stop on most of all non-academic stuff, making enrolling in college less appealing to this group of students. It will be interesting to see a follow-up a…

Most of the amenities you speak of are not available at community colleges, which have seen the biggest decline. The pandemic definitely figures into this, but I don't think amenities can account for the large decline in certificate and vocational training this represents.

Community College still absolutely offers a social experience even if it’s just being in the same classroom as other people.

And Zoom interactions are still terribly inferior to real life in-person ones regardless of what kind of college you go to.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#347

Post by ozzythecat »

paulpauper wrote: post #213
sylens wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's quite clearly this. Millennials have been out there for nearly a decade yelling on social media about how ridiculous their student loans are. Kids on the precipice of college have started paying attention. Combine that with the restrictions for Covid, and you have a lot of kids who don't think that taking on tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of dollars in debt is worth it for some Zoom classe…

you have a lot of kids who don't think that taking on tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of dollars in debt is worth it for some Zoom classes. Yeah, but you are assuming people only go to college for its educational value , ignoring that college grads tend to have much higher wages and lower unemployment compared to high school grads. If you look at FIRE subs for example, almost everyone who attains ear…

You’re implying causation - that a college degree is the cause of these outcomes. I’m not convinced that’s true, and in my mind, it might be one of the most damaging beliefs.

It could be that people who are driven or passionate, on average, want to pursue higher education, or that they take on risks, exercise their brains in learning endeavors, and it’s their effort and drive that leads to success.

It’s entirely possible that high earners have college degrees because they were told that to be successful, they had to go to college. It’s a belief they were raised with.

I think it’s highly misguided that we give college so much credit. And we also demonstrate survivorship bias where those who went to college but didn’t get the pay off are blamed for having made some wrong decision.

We treat higher education as a silver bullet and put it on a pedestal when it’s not.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#349

Post by newfonewhodis »

indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

While your (completely valid) points address the economics of college, it misses the connections and friendships you make through college. It's the best way for most people to be thrown around thousands of people to find and build their community.

All that to say, if the economics of college were better, even I (mid-career) would consider going back for a couple of degrees to continue expanding my community.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#350

Post by eljimmy »

I checked the tuition fees for my university CS degree and it's now just over $10,000 CAD per year for a bachelor. That's actually not that bad of an increase considering I was paying around $6,000 CAD about 15 years ago.

I presume there are cheap colleges and universities in the states as well that are just as educational as the big name schools.

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