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Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

utcc.utoronto.ca

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Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#341
post #140

It’s not so bad to run your own email server. Im doing it, because email is very sensitive data, and I don’t want to share it with Google or Microsoft or any other cloud provider. The worst part is, that you can’t use any fancy email clients, because they all use proprietary protocols and once again cloud services. But imap and activesync works well enough too. The most important thing is, to get a clean IP address.…

I've had real trouble with digital ocean as they just don't want to get involved in helping email providers at all. They don't want to do anything with managing IP reputation.

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#342
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Except of course that it isn't an artisanal choice, a very practical one that is made increasingly impossible by the few very large email providers that are left. It should be as simple as hosting a web server." I don't get this one. How do large email providers make it difficult to host your own email? I host my own email. It was a pain to setup so I try not to touch it since it is running fine. Setting up email on…

> How do large email providers make it difficult to host your own email? By randomly marking your email as spam without any recourse. This may be because they blacklist your provider en bloc, your IP address or some subnet, because they feel like it, it's Tuesday or because their spam filters suck. But it happens and it happens often enough that running a business in that way will cost you money, sometimes lots of it…

"By randomly marking your email as spam without any recourse."

Correct.

I'd like to describe how badly this is implemented:

I run my own mail server and I have a 15+ year history of emailing (mywife)@gmail.com.

On a regular basis (mywife)@gmail.com will email me, and I will respond to her email and my response will go to her junk/spam folder.

And there is no alert, no bounce, no notification.

Let's unpack this:

Google (gmail) knows that these two email addresses converse back and forth, regularly, with a 15+ year history. Google knows that their own user initiated this conversation. Google knows my email is a response to their users email. Google knows my address has never been marked as spam/junk.

So, what kind of unimaginably bad heuristics would have to be in employ to allow this to happen ?

To be honest, this wouldn't bother me that much - I don't think google owes me anything and my wife doesn't pay for their service. What makes me so, so angry is that they behave this way without any notification or bounce email.

That's just shitty.

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#343
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are plenty of issues, but there are also plenty of solutions. You're having issues sending because your netblock sucks and you don't have money for something better? Pay a few dollars to smarthost, for instance. I do and outlook.com still gives a shit and doesn't accept incoming emails. There is also no way to get their attention for this issue, as they simply don't reply to complaints about that. How to solv…

What kind of mail are you sending? Are you getting anything on your abuse@ address? Are you getting any feedback on JMRP [0]? If all else fails, the mailop mailing list [1] can get you closer to someone on one of these networks to help. >There is also no way to get their attention for this issue, as they simply don't reply to complaints about that. How to solve issues like that? At one point, after getting one-too-ma…

> What kind of mail are you sending?

Just personal emails. Volume would be somewhere around one email per month or so.

> Are you getting anything on your abuse@ address?

Nope.

> Are you getting any feedback on JMRP [0]?

That seems to require a Microsoft account and that's something I neither have nor want. I believe sending emails has to work without having to register an account for each provider you're interacting with.

> If all else fails, the mailop mailing list [1] can get you closer to someone on one of these networks to help.

Thanks for the tip, although I'm not sure if I'm the right audience for this list, as I just run a personal mail server with very low volume.

Funnily enough the "Best practices" section of the Mailop website contains a dedicated point (https://www.mailop.org/best-practices/#large-providers-gmail...) stating that there might be unresolvable issues when sending to large providers:

> If you want to send mail to recipients who have accounts at big email providers, be aware that all of the above cannot guarantee that these providers won’t reject your mail, put it straight into recipient’s spam folder or just silently discard it - they just impose their own rules on anyone and you virtually can’t do anything about it.

My guess is, that the reason for the problems is the same as quoted in another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29673347), stating that the mail volume is just too low for outlook.com to establish enough trust in the sending mail server.

If you look around on the internet, there are plenty of other people with the same issues with outlook.com. To me it seems Microsoft is doing something fundamentally hostile to small mail servers there. Interestingly enough sending to Office 365 hosted email addresses works just fine.

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#344
If I have business outcomes that are dependent on people receiving my emails, it's difficult for me to be in a situation where the other person may need to, at some point, be told that they aren't getting my emails because I'm on some kind of "hipster email system" which they are no doubt going to perceive it to be.

They're probably going to wonder why they are wasting their time with me when I can't even get something "as simple as email" right.

For personal email I'd probably consider it.

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#345
post #43
post #28

Yeah I stopped running my own. I kept getting blocked by Microsoft in particular (mainly consumer recipients at live.com and outlook.com, strange enough not corporate O365 users!). I'm 100% sure I did not send any spam, the only emails going to those addresses were legit from a family member. DMARC and SPF were all set perfectly, relays blocked, I was not on any spamlist and I never have been either. Literally every…

I had a very similar experience. Is there any cheaper option than just using aws SES nowadays ? (for outbound only! don't understand why people would pay the same rate for inbound) My concern is what happens when aws decides to massively increase rates...

If you send from an ec2 instance is "always free" (tm) for the first 62k outbound emails each month and 1k inbound.

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Things that have happened in the last 20 years include SPF, DKIM, DMARC Right, of course. The protocols are more complex. (Add TLS, MTA-STS...) But whereas 20 years ago you _had_ to start from scratch and understand the whole stack, today that's just not necessary. There are numerous projects that make running a mail server readily possible without knowing e.g. the sendmail configuration macro language. And there a…

Sorry, I think "undeniable" is way too strong. I wrote the email chapter for the book "Internet Secrets" in 2000, and I ran my own mail server 1997-2019, so I have a pretty good sense of what the landscape was like then versus now. QMail and Postfix were both out before 2001, so you didn't need to know sendmail at the time. You just had to be able to configure the mailer to get things up and running. And given that t…

I think around 1998 or 1999. I don't think we disagree on the facts: I totally agree that there is a lot more to understand and that deliverability is a nightmare. No question. What I see is that today people can achieve a reasonable mail server while being an expert at less.

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#347
post #230
post #122

I would really say that "running your own email" is a set of things that can be done independently: - Getting your own domain and using a provider such as fastmail or proton is a first step that gives you lots of security fom arbitrary. Because you own the doorstep, you can change provider without having to inform all your contacts of the move. You're also more secure from unilateral moves from your provider. -Hostin…

Internet was meant to be decentralized. Lets leave it this way. I am running my server for 15 years and couldn't be more happy with "artisan" infrastructure. I don't want or use webmail (sluggish), I don't want others fingerpoking my emails, I don't want various compulsory registration systems (like requiring my phone number out of """security""" reasons like google), giving others the ability to kill my account and…

What are the memory requirements for postfix, dovecot, and rspamd these days?

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#348
Email is honestly not that hard to get right, but you do have to get a lot of stuff configured correctly for everything to work well. I've never had a lot of problems with blacklisting and at one point, was running about 48,000 messages per day sending marketing emails (ecommerce sites, to subscribed users) and transactional emails. Deliverability issues were few and far between, and most often were caused by MS Exchange admins at distributors (where we would send orders via email) who just didn't understand how the internet worked (like blocking all domains that weren't .com, .net or .edu). My favorite was one who blocked .io because he personally only got spam from that TLD.

On the whole, just use a service makes sense in that the time you spend on email probably could be spent on things that make money. If you have an app that sends a lot of emails, understanding how it all works can be a very useful skill, too. So is learning to work with admins at big service providers.

Re: Running your own email is increasingly an artisanal choice, not a practical one

#350
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To most, including Gmail, it's actually no problem with DMARC in my experience too. However, one of my servers IPs is on a Microsoft blacklist since many years now. It sends <10 messages / day. I've tried every unlist form I could find, even called MS but it does not get taken of that list and they "won't disclose why". I'm routing SMTP to MS via another relay now :)

> I'm routing SMTP to MS via another relay now :) How do you do this? Could you share details on the setup?

It's a rather simple Postfix setup:

transport.db:

hotmail.com relay:[relay.server.tld]:587 # and other domains

main.cf:

transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport smtp_sasl_password_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/relay_passwd

relay_passwd.db: # if necessary / not authenticated by IP relay.server.tld user:pass

The relay can/should rewrite the Return-Path to pass SPF. It's no problem for DMARC as the DKIM signature added by the initial server still authenticates it.

It requires manually adding domains of custom 365 installations to the list - at this size I do this manually, but should probably be automated "on bounce" or maybe even by a smart rule based on the MX record.

In Exim4 it's also possible to conditionally rewrite based on for example the recipient domain.

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