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President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

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Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#341

Post by vmception »

zepto wrote: post #318
vmception wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay so a more apt comparison would be 30 years after the Tulsa race massacre in America to see if was easier to talk about it Or 100 years after the Tianamen Square massacre in China to see if its easier to talk about it then great. very productive.

It’s a delusional if you think that in the 50s, there were American agents intimidating their citizens abroad for talking about the Tulsa race massacre . The idea that it is OK for it to take another 50 years before the Chinese can talk about Tiananmen without fear of state reprisal, seems to be an apology for totalitarian oppression.

“Agree with me or its an apology for totalitarian oppression“

Alternatively its just not an apt comparison.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#342

Post by ridaj »

sschueller wrote: post #248
Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

I would compare Tiananmen Square with the Tulsa race massacre. How many Americans don't know about it? The time I spend in the US I had the feeling that you have more of a pseudo freedom than actual freedom. Everyone keeps saying how free they are and how great their country is yet you can't even drink an alcoholic beverage on the street without getting arrested. You go to a town festival and the people who want to d…

Prime whataboutism. But anyways, just as one example, the Tulsa race massacre was the subject of a major recent TV series (The Watchmen). Mere mentions of Tiananmen square massacre, observing quiet vigils, etc. could get you jailed in China. On freedom of speech, there is no possible comparison. Even the existence of this very conversation would be immediately censored on the Chinese domestic internet.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#343

Post by Cupertino95014 »

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

Look at you, getting all fancy with your "deontological" and "consequentialist." Does it feel erudite to use 5 dollar words when a 10 cent word like "freedom" would do?

No, actually we cannot see that "having consequentialist ethics that don't care about your freedom do a lot better at fighting pandemics." But then, we don't have police welding people's doors shut, either.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#344

Post by johncena33 »

oxymoran wrote: post #45

The brainwashing must be strong for students thousands of miles away from China in the middle of nowhere Indiana for them to feel the need to snitch on dissenters. Or, more likely, they were threatened before they left China that they would be watched while abroad.

I've heard it from another Chinese student that a lot of Chinese students come from families that are blessed by CCP. So naturally they are very loyal to CCP. Very few students/people in general can make it outside of China without being blessed by CCP. Hence very high loyalty to CCP among international Chinese students.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#345

Post by DFHippie »

jvanderbot wrote: post #245
Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

I liked your take on this situation and the tradeoffs, but please note I'm a red blooded American that just ordered a tesla, doesn't own guns, and couldn't tell you who won the Super Bowl last year.

Yeah, I'd push back a bit on the "red blooded American" = "rural truck driver/gun owner" idea, at least if "red blooded American" is supposed to mean "typical American" or "indisputably American" or "American who wishes their country to flourish".

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#346

Post by JumpCrisscross »

tshaddox wrote: post #299
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would compare Tiananmen Square with the Tulsa race massacre. How many Americans don't know about it? This is a legitimate comparison between the CCP and the government of Oklahoma. It is a bad comparison in terms of responses. China fears and represses discussion of the Tiananmen Square massacre. In America, we discuss and debate and try to incrementally learn from our experience.

Is it somehow better that the government of the United States doesn’t even need to try to suppress the information?

> Is it somehow better that the government of the United States doesn’t even need to try to suppress the information?

Is the claim the United States is not having a discussion, in public and politics, reckoning with its racial past?

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#347

Post by Sharlin »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #281
sschueller wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would compare Tiananmen Square with the Tulsa race massacre. How many Americans don't know about it? The time I spend in the US I had the feeling that you have more of a pseudo freedom than actual freedom. Everyone keeps saying how free they are and how great their country is yet you can't even drink an alcoholic beverage on the street without getting arrested. You go to a town festival and the people who want to d…

> Everyone keeps saying how free they are and how great their country is yet you can't even drink an alcoholic beverage on the street without getting arrested. You go to a town festival and the people who want to drink are enclosed in a small area like cattle. Public space alcohol consumption is one of the weirdest metrics I’ve seen to gauge freedom. But for what it’s worth, laws regarding public alcohol consumption…

> Public space alcohol consumption is one of the weirdest metrics I’ve seen to gauge freedom.

I would say it's a much more relevant metric than the ability to own a shitload of guns, or to drive a black smoke diesel truck, the latter of which is honestly bafflingly antisocial behavior. The definition of "freedom" should begin with the freedom from others pushing their negative externalities onto you.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#348

Post by zepto »

guipsp wrote: post #304
zepto wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are a large number of bills in US state legislatures aimed at suppressing honest and uncensored discussion of the Tulsa race massacre. Bullshit. There is not one.

Quick google search: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/234...

Ahh, so in other words complete bulkshit,

That bill has nothing to do with preventing teaching about Tulsa.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#349

Post by nickysielicki »

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

Historically categorizing America like this might have made sense but ever since 9/11 it’s been less and less true. How else do you explain the economic response around the 2008 recession, the patriot act and everything in the Snowden leaks, our insane wars that are ostensibly not about oil futures, or the insane amount of money printing and spending in the wake of covid? I’m not even sure I’d be willing to buy the argument that China is more consequentialist than we are.

I don’t think that Tiananmen Square is their slavery. When I was in high school we had a guy visit from China and I dragged him to the school library and showed him the Wikipedia page for Tiananmen Square. He’d never heard of it. Same experience when I discussed it with Chinese friends in college. It’s not because Chinese society wants to get over it — China does not have such a thing as public opinion. Don’t look at China with rose colored glasses in the context of their 2021 economy, you have to remember how backwards and broke they were just 20 years ago. It was a totalitarian regime and it’s still a totalitarian regime, just a more wealthy one.

In summary, I agree that it seems like “consequentialism” has won, but it’s not the case that the two are battling it out to see which is better. Both countries independently chose consequentialism, and maybe it didn’t have to be that way.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#350

Post by pphysch »

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

To be crystal clear, the PRC does not view Tiananmen Square as a purely domestic affair. The extent to which students were radicalized, or signal-boosted by foreign influence is unclear.

In that sense, a better comparison would be an event in America's history that had significant foreign interference. For example, 9/11. You can talk objectively about 9/11, sure, just like you can talk objectively about Tiananmen Square in China. However, you absolutely cannot publicly glorify 9/11 and side with al-Qaeda. That will put you on watch lists and be socially shunned to the point of never getting hired by any company that can view your online comments.

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