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Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

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Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#341
post #29

Wow, this should be great news for Svelte and SvelteKit! Hopefully with Vercel's backing these projects will fly off. Having worked with React for about 5 years (with a project in Vue in-between) and now having dabbled with Svelte, there is just something more appealing working with less higher-level abstractions. Sure with large apps React does have its benefits and its ecosystem is larger by a good amount. But ther…

Hearing about a JS framework "X" that is surely that much more elegant than "Y" feels like it's 2010s again!

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#342

Rich Harris has done a lot of great work. Until esbuild came along, Rollup was the only sane JS bundler for those of us who can’t stand Webpack. Svelte has some interesting concepts, albeit I am planning to stay with React. His code is always interesting to read. Then there’s Vercel. I was a big advocate for them years ago, back when they were Zeit. I used them in production at multiple companies and I contributed to…

Maybe I'm misreading your comment, but Richard Harris did not create esbuild. Evan Wallace, co-founder of Figma, is the person behind it.

You did misread.

> Until esbuild came along, Rollup was the only sane JS bundler

Rich Harris did create Rollup

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#343

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

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Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't downvote either. Almost consider upvoting for visibility of the hilarity displayed. "There are too many frameworks! Why does everyone keep re-inventing the wheel? Why can't everyone just use the one that I like? "

I never asked anyone not to use svelte... I said why should I be compelled to learn this new language, other than it being the hot new UI framework of the day. It doesn't have a virtual DOM? It doesn't have synthetic events? Ok why not just use web components which provide their own encapsulation and vanilla JS. I don't have to learn a new language which may or may not be around/supported a few years from now... Also…

You’re right, you don’t have to! Who is forcing you to?

Rich Harris is going to work for Vercel, who are arguably most famous for Next.js, which is… React.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like svelte is superior for not needing a key.

The key is used by the shadow Dom for update performance; the is no shadow Dom in svelte

And yet Svelte is faster than React in pretty much every benchmark I’ve seen.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#346
post #311

I like React’s opinionated top-down model (with callbacks passed downwards as needed either directly as props or through a store / context) for handling state changes, as this improves composability and ability to reason about state. My understanding is that Svelte’s main difference from React is that it is not opinionated in this way, and this is considered a positive feature by its proponents. Is my understanding i…

And how about shadow DOM?

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like svelte is superior for not needing a key.

fair criticism I wonder how svelte optimizes for rerendering of long component lists. React uses keys to avoid rerendering the entire list.

I believe you can specify a key in Svelte as well, but perhaps it's used slightly differently than react.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#348
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, rewriting it with Electron + Svelte + a Rust backend for the heavy lifting. I looked at alternatives to Electron because I wanted to avoid the bloat, but nothing felt like the right fit. Tauri ( https://tauri.studio/ ) is the most exciting, but I couldn't find a good way to get raw video frames into the UI without a bunch of expensive copies or serialization. I also looked at native toolkits like Qt (I've worke…

Interested to hear if you considered compiling Rust to WASM and what your thoughts were?

I looked into it at one point and it sounded like WASM isn't as fast as native (yet?), and the main benefit would be the ability to run in a browser. That'd be useful for making a web version and I might look into it again, but for now, if I'm already shipping an Electron app, WASM seems like extra hassle with less speed. I might be wrong about this though! Happy to hear if there are benefits I'm missing.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#349

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

I completely agree with you, and I've yet to see a compelling argument against this. I've been doing this since the rise of the SPA, all the way from vanilla, jQuery, Backbone, Angular 1.0, Ember and React and after reading your comment all I can think of is "great, we're going back to handlebars templating again". There is no net-gain in re-inventing the wheel. It just becomes yet another thing to master to stay rel…

The youngest framework of your list is 8 years old already. Svelte itself is gonna be 5 years old in a couple weeks, and there's absolutely no need to pick it up right now.

The meme that there are new frontends daily is extremely tired and has been totally false for several years now.

Also the only thing those baseless complaints achieve are flamewars and shitting in other people's work.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#350

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

IMHO, syntax is the easiest part. Semantics are the tricky part. One very clear example of this is how Svelte and React deal with async stuff.

The Svelte approach follows the handlebar approach of having semantics be represented by DSL constructs - which is a very reasonable approach IMHO.

The Suspense semantics are so far off left field that someone literally wrote a whole framework specifically in response to its complexity[0].

And that complexity permeates every language construct used within a React component. Why can't we call hooks from inside if statements? Aren't if statements just JS? If you have to bring up React's internal implementation to explain, that's no longer "just Javascript", it's also a healthy chunk of very React-specific knowledge that you need to be aware of.

Vue is another example that provides a successful story of a very large algorithmic migration from a reactive system to virtual dom with virtually no disruption to consumers, thanks to the abstraction provided by its DSL. In contrast, try telling my wife (who's learning about class components in her React course) that functional components and hooks "are just JS, what's the big deal", and see how far that takes you :)

[0] https://crank.js.org/blog/introducing-crank

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