How credit cards make money • Hacker News Board

Re: How credit cards make money

#341

Post by nikitaga » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 7:27 AM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #314

nikitaga wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because US election system does not reflect the will of the population, or even the voting population. FPTP is a highly deficient system that results in the same two parties staying in power indefinitely, which is only marginally better than a single party state. So, I find it hard to blame the population for the politicians they elect in this case. US elections are a lot more constrained by the ruling class and the…

Just my on-the-ground view as an American, I've seen both major parties in this country change radically in my lifetime to the point of being unrecognizable. In the case of the Republican party this has happened twice. The USSR had only one Party, but intra-party politics were all the more fierce as a result. I'm not saying that a full or even reasonably varied spectrum of true, non-spectacular or intelligent alterna…

> The ideological spread between Joe Manchin and AOC covers most of the ground covered by center and left European parties.

Most Americans don't have the option to vote for AOC or Joe Manchin (nor for their ideological equivalents). Neither for congress, nor for the President. They get shit candidates and still vote for them because the only viable alternative is an even worse candidate from a party you hate more than the other one. This is very much by design of FPTP, because it prevents third party competition from posing any threat to established parties. The two parties just pick their ideologies from a list of hot topics and never face any competition for the implementation of those ideologies.

This is very much not the case in more proportional voting systems, which provide true political competition across the political spectrum, not just superficial ideological posturing that isn't subject to competition. This is all very well known both practically and academically with tons of research to back it up. Youtube and wikipedia have all the mechanics, the references, and real world data, spelled out.

> Just that what a 2-party system lacks in superficial variety it may more than make up for in internecine disagreement

Sure, a political duopoly is better than a monopoly, but just like in other markets, only slightly so. Political power is a market like any other market, and needs significant competition from more than a couple actors to produce outcomes that are best for the consumers (voters). Even that AmEx case is a prime example, a direct result of shitty parties produced by this shitty election system. And that result will stay here for decades if not forever, regardless of which party is in power, because this election system is not going anywhere, and will keep producing such results.

Re: How credit cards make money

#342

Post by gjs278 » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 7:31 AM UTC

quantified wrote: post #317

makeitdouble wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to dantheman’s point, a lot of merchants are more than willing to spend 3~5% in fees if it means making a register line 10~15% faster, or reduces the cash stock they need to keep at hand and manage thorough the day. Privileging cash as a customer isn’t universally better for the merchant.

Then, politeness suggests you ask if you’re thinking about it.

that wastes time and is a weird question

Re: How credit cards make money

#343

Post by gjs278 » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 7:32 AM UTC

mgbmtl wrote: post #294

dantheman wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a cost to dealing with cash, which is why some merchants prefer to be all card/no cash.

I don't know for op, but I assume cash means debit, where the fees are very low. Tangentially, I was happy to be able to use debit to buy a new car. Had to phone my credit union to tell them to raise the limit on the day of the transaction, but it saved me having to go to the bank during their working hours to get a certified cheque.

cash means someone has to drop it off at the bank and could be robbed of all of it

Re: How credit cards make money

#344

Post by nikitaga » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 7:42 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #337

nyokodo wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FPTP is a highly deficient system that results in the same two parties staying in power indefinitely New Zealand has used MMP for 25 years and yet it still dithers between two major parties. Minor parties do tend to have to be incorporated into coalitions with one or the other major party, which is something, however, they’re almost always the same minor parties falling along the left right divide. Electoral system…

Using a different system to get the same outcome doesn't disprove your parent's claim. That claim is most definitely false though; Canada uses plurality voting. (For reference, the Canadian House of Commons, according to Wikipedia's footer, divides into 158 Liberals, 119 Conservatives, 33 Québécois, 25 New Democrats, 2 Greens, and 1 Independent. The Senate divides into 41 Independents, 20 Conservatives, 12 Canadians,…

Canada has FPTP just like the US, the slight differences in implementation explain the slightly better outcomes, but that's about it. Don't know how that disproves anything.

The last time Canada had anyone other than conservatives or liberals govern the country was more than 100 years ago. [1] What kind of opposition is warming the rest of the parliament seats doesn't matter all that much, because just like in the US, there is no culture of inter-party collaboration in Canada, because there is no need for it: minority governments are rare (thanks to FPTP). This is very much unlike countries with proportional representation, where coalition governments are the norm, because when stupid voting mechanics are not protecting the duopoly, no single party is ever good enough to capture more than half of the vote.

The senate in Canada isn't even elected, senators are appointed by the Prime Minister. And it doesn't have the same prominent role as the US senate. So I've no idea what are you trying to say here.

FPTP favors the two biggest parties by a huge margin. It's damn math, it's been proven decades ago. Look it up.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_federal_gener...

Re: How credit cards make money

#345

Post by nikitaga » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 7:46 AM UTC

nyokodo wrote: post #313

nikitaga wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because US election system does not reflect the will of the population, or even the voting population. FPTP is a highly deficient system that results in the same two parties staying in power indefinitely, which is only marginally better than a single party state. So, I find it hard to blame the population for the politicians they elect in this case. US elections are a lot more constrained by the ruling class and the…

> FPTP is a highly deficient system that results in the same two parties staying in power indefinitely New Zealand has used MMP for 25 years and yet it still dithers between two major parties. Minor parties do tend to have to be incorporated into coalitions with one or the other major party, which is something, however, they’re almost always the same minor parties falling along the left right divide. Electoral system…

You really should look deeper into how New Zealand lawmaking and governance works if you think their situation is anywhere close to the US just because they also have big parties. The two systems (and outcomes) couldn't be further apart.

MMP in NZ has increased competition and brought effective collaborative governments, and it hasn't even been 30 years.

Re: How credit cards make money

#346

Post by BirdieNZ » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 7:47 AM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #46

patio11 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW: I think technologists are far too quick to jump to "I bet they want to do it for free marketing" and far too slow to think "I bet they have a large team of people who does almost literally nothing other than study this exact question, has thought about it for hundreds of thousands more hours than any credit card user has, and has a highly developed technical infrastructure capable of authoritatively answering i…

I see this pattern almost weekly with engineers (both online and offline). The hubris is fascinating . (Full disclosure: I was often guilty of this myself for the first decade-plus of my career.)

The current discussions around Covid and vaccines made me realise I am continually guilty of this hubris. I've heard people say before "whenever I see a discussion on a subject I am an expert on, HN is full of ignorant commenters", but I feel it far more viscerally now.

The first stage was: these anti-vaxxers don't have a degree in immunology, what makes them qualified to even attempt to interpret scientific papers on the subject?

The second stage was: wait, I don't have a degree in immunology either, why am I pretending to be "following the science" when I don't have even the vocabulary or the context to properly grasp immunology papers?

Accepting that I am a functional ignoramus with regards to Covid, viruses, immunology, vaccine development etc. is very freeing. I'm basically knowledgeable on very few things, and am not an authority on (vaccines|economics|law|history|basically everything). Being good at software engineering doesn't make me an expert at everything I read two articles on.

Re: How credit cards make money

#347

Post by jhatax » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 7:49 AM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #303

idoh wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw this happening in Woodside CA (very much in the SF Bay Area) less than a year ago.

Yep, Robert’s Market does this. Great for kids who walk home from the elementary school down the street, and can pick up a snack on the way home. Given the demographics of Woodside, it’s also frequently used by nannies and other family helpers who shop for the uber-wealthy residents who call Woodside home…

This was (and still is) the norm in Mumbai where I grew up. We had an account at the local grocery store; the store owner knew us by name and would let us buy snacks on the way back home from school or after a cricket match. The term “khaata” (translation: account) is well known in Mumbai, and should evoke feelings of nostalgia about a simpler time for others who grew up in Mumbai like I did.

Accounts were typically settled at the end of the month. The system is predicated on trust and customer service.

Re: How credit cards make money

#348

Post by ryloric » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:03 AM UTC

twic wrote: post #78

patio11 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW: I think technologists are far too quick to jump to "I bet they want to do it for free marketing" and far too slow to think "I bet they have a large team of people who does almost literally nothing other than study this exact question, has thought about it for hundreds of thousands more hours than any credit card user has, and has a highly developed technical infrastructure capable of authoritatively answering i…

Reminds me of: > The entire fintech sector rules because it’s tech ppl looking at a 500 year old sector that accounts for 10% of the economy and employs some of the smartest and most ruthless people in the world and saying “You know what, I bet these guys are leaving a lot of money on the table” [0] [0] https://twitter.com/quantian1/status/1447705628521152517

God, this is so accurate.

Re: How credit cards make money

#349

Post by gscott » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:11 AM UTC

voidfunc wrote: post #254

clairity wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, never use your debit card and use only credit cards online, but cash is better for non-major in-person purchases as it's inherently private and anonymous. it's also better for the payee (hopefully a local retailer not a mega-corp), since they don't have to pay the fees. for major in-person purchases, the extra (fraud, warranty, etc.) protections provided by the credit card may be worth the privacy/anonymity trad…

Cash is wonderful too for tax evasion. Hence cash only businesses.

Not anymore with the bank reporting coming up. Unless if you keep all the cash under the bed.

Re: How credit cards make money

#350

Post by noduerme » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:24 AM UTC

nikitaga wrote: post #341

noduerme wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just my on-the-ground view as an American, I've seen both major parties in this country change radically in my lifetime to the point of being unrecognizable. In the case of the Republican party this has happened twice. The USSR had only one Party, but intra-party politics were all the more fierce as a result. I'm not saying that a full or even reasonably varied spectrum of true, non-spectacular or intelligent alterna…

> The ideological spread between Joe Manchin and AOC covers most of the ground covered by center and left European parties. Most Americans don't have the option to vote for AOC or Joe Manchin (nor for their ideological equivalents). Neither for congress, nor for the President. They get shit candidates and still vote for them because the only viable alternative is an even worse candidate from a party you hate more tha…

>> Most Americans don't have the option to vote for AOC or Joe Manchin (nor for their ideological equivalents). Neither for congress, nor for the President.

But Americans do usually have a wide variety of choices in the primaries. It's the primaries where the actual policy ideological positions are fought out. There would be no AOC - or MTG, for that matter - but for some highly motivated sets of voters with various axes to grind. However, most Americans prefer political gridlock to any well-tuned agenda. The reason AOC and MTG are outliers is because most nominees are forced to run toward the center in general elections, and govern toward the center if they win. Yeah, this is why they mostly end up endorsing corporate handouts, and we can all decry it, but it's arguably a lot better than letting the more extreme left or right-wing agendas come in and flip the table.

Considering other presidential systems, look how close France was recently, to Marine Le Pen and genuine fascism. Or how quickly Venezuela turned into a one-party state under Chavez. Consider how close we were to Trump replacing the elected government.

The status quo in which corporations call the shots and banks rob everyone has been de rigeuer in America since the 18th C. This is an unfortunate but ultimately comprehensible state of Hobbesian chaos. The weakness of narrow-agenda political parties is the strength of that economic engine, and we are all - all of us with cars, houses, tech jobs, and money to blow on vacations and dinners - beneficiaries of a system that moves very, very incrementally and doesn't try to steer a tanker like a speedboat.