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The latest campus cancellation is different

theatlantic.com

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Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#341

Post by civilized »

tomnipotent wrote: post #306
civilized wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying and it's reasonable. I think you greatly overestimate the objective rigor and correctness of your analysis, but I get it. Sanctioning widely-held views as not meritorious alienates a lot of people too. They don't seem to figure into your calculations. Based on your other posts, you seem to think that the most important audience for the talk is prospective climate change researchers, who you b…

> alienates a lot of people too Who cares? With that attitude we wouldn't have ended slavery, woman wouldn't be able to vote, civil rights wouldn't have happened, and hetero marriage would still be the only option.

For those who see race-based preferences as an urgent form of social progress, this does make sense, yes. I don't, and most Americans don't, but that doesn't make us right.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#342

Post by ResearchCode »

still_grokking wrote: post #339
coldtea wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US sodomy was a crime too. Laws can change. Labour law is not written in stone. And even with current laws, where there "need not be a just cause", there are protections against unjust causes (e.g. because they found out you're jewish, or you're fat, or whatever) and "because a mob campaigned against one" can be added to that. "But, under current law the business could just say they fired them for their own ne…

But there is than the next obstacle in the US system: You need to have very deep pockets to actually take a case in court. "Justice" is only available to the rich in the US. (And this doesn't seem to be a construction error if you look closer. But that's another topic).

Other countries have unions that will handle those cases for the laid-off employee. Doesn't work perfectly but it's another idea worth considering.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#343

Post by milesvp »

throwaway984393 wrote: post #270

Actually it's not different. University lecturers have been protested or cancelled for decades for reasons unrelated to their topic, usually due to political beliefs or corporate interests that clashed with students' ideals. "Cancel culture" is specifically about "personal" societal reforms, which is what makes it different than the older complaints about general politics. Back in the day it was "edgy" to protest or…

I’m not sure you’re correct that nothing is different. I saw a lecture recently by someone whose organization does mediation between student groups and universities with regards to free speech. He was saying that a few years ago for the first time his organization was starting to mediate in the opposite direction.

Was a very interesting talk. The speaker had tried to commit suicide and in the process of recovering from that realized that the speech patterns that are associated with sucidal tendencies, extreme consequences to minor events, were being used by student groups. Things like “if so and so comes to campus, people will die”. And they weren’t being hyperbolic, like they were honestly afraid someone would die if a speaker were allowed to speak. So the mediations required finding ways to bring nuance back to the conversation.

I honestly don’t know how different these objections to speakers are than in the past, but I thought it was interesting that there was a shift in the balance of power between university administrations and student groups in the US.

Edit: Thanks to mrosett for pointing out this was Greg Lukianoff who is with FIRE. Please take care researching this topic, it is a large lightning rod for alt-right and heavily conservative view points. Some cursory searches show that FIRE might not be as neutral as I thought they were.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#344

Post by woodruffw »

coldtea wrote: post #299
zimpenfish wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> llegal to fire someone over a twitter mob [...] Anti-lynching laws Are you really comparing getting fired from your job to a lynching? Because one of them seems a whole lot less serious than the other...

> Are you really comparing getting fired from your job to a lynching? Blacks used to get fired (or not hired) from jobs, or thrown out of towns and establishments for being black on the demand of racist white mobs. Is that serious enough for someone to make a comparison with a historical issue like lynching, or it should involve a hanging too? Lynchings didn't always involve death, sometimes it was "just" beatings, n…

Lynching was part of a framework of racial terror that kept (and by its legacies, continues to keep) black people from attaining social and economic equality. I'd say that very few things meet a sufficient standard for comparison with lynching, least of which is the occasional (and generally management-class or higher) white person losing their job.

> And the "right to work" (not to mention feed yourself and your family) is as important as the right to live.

"Right to work," at least in the US, is a series of laws designed to curtail labor rights by weakening unions (i.e., the institutions that usually keep people in their jobs, particularly in at-will countries like the US). Are you sure that's what you meant?

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#345

Post by voakbasda »

Aunche wrote: post #200
mkr-hn wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dr. King put it best: "a riot is the language of the unheard." Some portion of the mob on Twitter is people chasing clout and performing social justice. For example: I've been attacked for "generalizing nonbinary people" by cis people while describing my own experience as a nonbinary person , so I don't doubt people like that drive a lot of the discussion, but the vast majority is sincere if sometimes misdirected ang…

>a riot is the language of the unheard The context of this quote is in a speech that is largely anti-riot. It's a warning to the government to not be complacent, but the woke left treats as if he was condoning rioters.

So what should we do when the government will not listen? Keep talking? A warning without the backing of consequences is not effective.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#346

Post by voakbasda »

coldtea wrote: post #283
umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

> How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Ignore their demands (as an enterprise, business, institution, government, etc.), mock and derise their members (as a society), and stop publicizing them (as media).

So, we deplatform them? Tit for tat.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#347

Post by morelisp »

rscoots wrote: post #308
nimbius wrote: post #128

just for clarification, the speaker has a newsweek peace that rails against diversity, equality, and inclusion as a sinister regime that actually works against diversity and actually hurts the public trust. he then goes on to insist universities are 'diverse' enough, so dont worry about them. his citations are...tentative at best. https://www.newsweek.com/diversity-problem-campus-opinion-16... The guy also made a god…

How would you respond to this point then by the author? >If every cringeworthy analogy to the Third Reich were grounds for canceling talks, hundreds of professors—and thousands of op-ed columnists—would no longer be welcome on campus.

It's a weak argument. First, there's a big gap between "canceling talks" and "no longer welcome on campus." Secondly, it's not like it was a recanted off-the-cuff remark or an ill-advised mailing list post dredged up from his grad student days - he published it in a national periodical[1] not two months ago. This at least suggests he's not a good communicator.

[1] With all the usual caveats about Newsweek today being a weird semi-propaganda arm of The Community and not particularly reputable despite its brand and reach. If that's the place you go to get published, maybe that's already a sign you don't have the banger essay you thought you did.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#348

Post by angelzen »

FiberBundle wrote: post #325
peterangular wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems like there were two things Abbot did "wrong", one was to argue against affirmative action, and the other was to use a nazi reference to make his point. Which in the current political climate is a horrible look for the school. I get why they dropped him - for better or worse lots of people are fed up with the promise of an ideal meritocracy... especially younger folks. And, for better or worse, those younger f…

I don't understand the argument of people who partly justify affirmative action in college admissions with the lack of a perfect meritocracy. So just because the ideal of a perfect meritocracy is illusive, decisions shouldn't primarily be based on merit anymore?

It is a form of perverted sense of fairness. If X gets to skirt the rules, it's only fair that everybody (really, myself, but that sounds too crass) gets to skirt the rules as well.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#349

Post by dudul »

zimpenfish wrote: post #102
snek_case wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be good to pass laws that make it illegal to fire someone over a twitter mob (or any kind of mob action). Anti-mob or anti-bullying laws. And/or initiate class-action lawsuits against twitter for encouraging this kind of behavior or failing to prevent it, resulting in significant damage to people's careers. It's far from being the first time this happens, so there's definitely a case to be made that twitter…

> llegal to fire someone over a twitter mob [...] Anti-lynching laws Are you really comparing getting fired from your job to a lynching? Because one of them seems a whole lot less serious than the other...

They surely are not equal, but I find them very comparable. When twitter mobs try to get people fired they're trying to prevent them from making a living, what are they after? Do they want the target to kill tthemselves?

Also "comparing" by definition can be done between any 2 things, even if they don't have the same "value". I can compare oranges and dogs if I want to.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#350

Post by judahmeek »

milesvp wrote: post #343
throwaway984393 wrote: post #270

Actually it's not different. University lecturers have been protested or cancelled for decades for reasons unrelated to their topic, usually due to political beliefs or corporate interests that clashed with students' ideals. "Cancel culture" is specifically about "personal" societal reforms, which is what makes it different than the older complaints about general politics. Back in the day it was "edgy" to protest or…

I’m not sure you’re correct that nothing is different. I saw a lecture recently by someone whose organization does mediation between student groups and universities with regards to free speech. He was saying that a few years ago for the first time his organization was starting to mediate in the opposite direction. Was a very interesting talk. The speaker had tried to commit suicide and in the process of recovering fr…

Any particular reason you choose not to name the speaker you're supposedly talking about?
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