Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus • Hacker News Board

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#341

Post by newacct583 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #105

Hokusai wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

> One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something.

And one of the lessons other people refuse to see is that appeasement of hate generally just leads to more hate. This is what we're seeing in the US right now, where what seems to be a majority fraction of one of the major parties is captured by an escalating rhetoric of hate. The angrier they get, the more votes they get. You can't placate that, because at the end of the day it's feeding on ITSELF, not a fundamental injustice.

You really think that American voters are so outraged about vaccines or masks because of a genuine concern for good modern medical practice? No, they hate that stuff because it's pushed by the people they already hate. So now they hate them more.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#342

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #305

roenxi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

> But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily Brazil experienced 12 years of prosperity from 2003 to 2015, with some trouble starting in 2012, but still with solid numbers in unemployment, for instance. Still a hate-based disinformation campaign managed to overthrow a re-elected president for accusations later pr…

>>This is why we need to deal harshly with such hatred/disinfo campaigns, ruthlessly deplatforming fringe elements and denying them the chance to drag the Overton window their way.

I can't help but to smile the smile of mild horror that calls to overreaching and overzealous censorship of wrongthink ( hate is sufficiently innocuous and broad to cover just about any kind of wrongthink - just the fact that it has been accepted by mainstream as a good enough reason is horrifying ) is so common that is used with adjectives like ruthlessly without any feel for the irony.

I can certainly feel the hate.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#343

Post by laurent92 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

lloydjones wrote: post #217

roenxi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

I'm not sure I agree. In the UK, the lower middle class are (to generalise) materially well-off; they own their own homes, they have a couple of cars, they have large televisions, one partner does not have to work, etc. And through pure boredom/decadence, they were radicalised through years of negative messaging from the populist press into 'caring' about things like Brexit, immigration, welfare claimants, etc. These…

The average life in UK is to be a drunkard with bad teeth. Don’t take it bad, I love such friends and you may face difficulties with life, but while some find it poetic and party-prone, what does it tell about the country’s care of its citizen? Which other nation has a higher quantity of middle classes who drink themselves to near-death experience every second evening? What does it mean when the middleclass experience is to use pills at every high-school party since 1980?

No matter how you look at it, you cannot possibly tell me that the UK-born Englishman has been well taken care of. Especially when the representative TV show of the country is Top Gear, which, besides being awesome and fun to watch, is also stuck in the pollution and selfish age (apart from James May, who timidly looks to the electric future), and shows those drunkards-with-bad-teeth are not at all the lowerclasses or the unlucky, but the normal life up to the top of the society. The crib of Rock’n’roll is now a nation that is desperate for illusions right from the bottom to the top.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#344

Post by cranekam » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #234

lloydjones wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree. In the UK, the lower middle class are (to generalise) materially well-off; they own their own homes, they have a couple of cars, they have large televisions, one partner does not have to work, etc. And through pure boredom/decadence, they were radicalised through years of negative messaging from the populist press into 'caring' about things like Brexit, immigration, welfare claimants, etc. These…

Hasn't the UK's energy availability basically collapsed? I keep an eye on the basic stats [0] and it looked like the situation was pretty grim leading up to Brexit. Someone is really hurting. Either production is collapsing and people are losing good jobs, or it is directly going to result in household pain. I suppose it would surprise me if 20% of a country's electricity can disappear, almost half its primary energy…

Can you explain what "energy availability" means in this context? My family lives in the UK and the lights work and the gad flows. Prices increase over time (above inflation, IIRC) but it still works, so I assume you're referring to some other meaning I don't yet know about.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#345

Post by speeder » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #305

roenxi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

> But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily Brazil experienced 12 years of prosperity from 2003 to 2015, with some trouble starting in 2012, but still with solid numbers in unemployment, for instance. Still a hate-based disinformation campaign managed to overthrow a re-elected president for accusations later pr…

Accusations are not proved unfounded, he was freed from prison because of a mix of politics, procedural errors from judges that imprisoned him, and changes on how the judiciary works.

And many people rightly saw that the prosperity that happened during Lula's time was because of booming commodities market and exports booming, not because anything he did in particular.

Brazillians voted for Bolsonaro not because he is right wing, but because he promised he would end corruption, and the workers party IS corrupt.

Now that Bolsonaro has proven that he won't end corruption either (starting with him protecting his son), I doubt he will be re-elected, instead whoever else promises to end corruption and is not corrupted that has a good shot.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#346

Post by daliusd » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

msravi wrote: post #36

daliusd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you abolish nation? What's wrong with current EU situation endorsing diversity? You can federate EU and abolish national governments and that's happening slowly.

Even if you were to abolish the national governments you would still need a local government that can always be at odds with the central government, right? But if you abolish these local governments as well, then you're basically imposing central diktats on a population, correct? How do you resolve the dichotomy?

Kind of correct. E.g. you may eliminate national parliaments and have only EU parliament. Yes, it has problems, but it feels something like that will happen eventually in EU. I am OK that this happens slowly.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#347

Post by 3np » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

reader_mode wrote: post #24

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

>Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Because outside of your bubble nobody wants this. A random person from Bulgaria is going to have a very different culture from a random person from Netherlands. What do you think happens with power in such conglomerate ? If you want to see what happens when you create a forced conglomerate of different nations (but still more simi…

> A random person from Bulgaria is going to have a very different culture from a random person from Netherlands.

And somehow me, a person from Denmark, has more cultural overlap with a hacker hipster from Mexico than most of my childhood classmates. And somehow I still coexist peacefully with my neighbors.

The internet and global travel are breaking down the national cultural barriers (largely induced/imposed by mass media). Meanwhile, power imbalance and widening gaps in the social fabric are increasing issues globally, even in monocultures and regardless of immigrants.

I think the points you raise are orthogonal. Except that you're most likely right that most people don't want this - because the illusion of the shared nation-culture and history has been so deeply imprinted in us by propaganda from the education system, the government, advertising, and media.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#348

Post by bwb » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

It takes time, good systems move slow :)

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#349

Post by dathos » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #295

jq-r wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. EU is the boogeyman for the governments in Eastern Europe. Whatever unpopular move they make, EU gets blamed for it. It is easy to blame some entity everyone knows exits, but at the same time, that entity is more like a group which doesn't fight back against it. Even if they fight back and criticize the government here and there, the latter own the media and that becomes a non-story. Right wing governments alw…

Sorry but this is a caricature. These countries were dying to join the West 30 years ago. Orban himself was one of the most prominent pro-West figures in the 90s. The only reason these countries are now “hostile” is because the EU and the West have changed.

I feel like you're missing a few key points that have also changed. I think almost everything is different from 30 years ago, not just the west and EU.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#350

Post by bogomipz » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

underscore_ku wrote: post #47

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

EU is as helpless as USA. what would US of A do with a rogue Texas? nothing

You might want to look up the American Civil War. It lasted from 1861 to 1865 and some 600K people died. That's what happened the last time any states threatened to secede from the Union in the US of A. It's also a pretty well-known bit of history.