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Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

nature.com

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Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#341

Post by peter422 »

nradov wrote: post #339
peter422 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a large difference in saying vitamin D is a "potent inhibitor" of COVID, and seeing that there is a correlation between people with normal levels of vitamin D and less severe COVID. Though even still the study results are mixed and still not ironclad, which is my point. And obviously any doctor (and I) would tell their patient to supplement vitamin D levels if they were low, but they would never say this som…

Did you actually read the linked studies? Several of them show clear evidence that vitamin D is a potent inhibitor of COVID-19 (although less potent than vaccination). The latest meta analysis indicates that ivermectin is also a fairly potent inhibitor, although the evidence is weaker. https://doi.org/10.1097/mjt.0000000000001402

There are 4 tiny RCTs with split results.

There is one medium sized almost randomized trial that shows a strong result. I'm not interested in small retrospective studies. There are 50 retrospective studies that show HCQ is an amazing drug against covid.

Clearly since there is little downside to given vitamin D to people who have low levels, it can and probably should be done, but that is very far from proving that it is a "potent inhibitor" of covid. There also is a clear bias for the person who makes that site since they also want it to be true. Maybe they don't look as hard for studies which disprove what they want. It isn't an overwhelming case.

There is more than enough evidence for a big RCT to actually confirm, but given the safety considerations and low expense it probably makes more sense to just dose everybody and hope it works. But I don't see how you could make grand claims with this evidence.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#342

Post by chaostheory »

occamrazor wrote: post #136
chaostheory wrote: post #42

So there's no chance of immune escape? I thought at the very least, it'd be like the flu vaccines where the virus mutates often enough that we all need periodic booster shots.

This article says that _if the virus doesn’t mutate_ the immunity is probably long lasting. It doesn’t directly address the orthogonal issue of immune escape.

Has it not already mutated?

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#343

Post by [deleted] »

sjwalter wrote: post #337
mrj wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try joining the Marines. I remember walking in a line with sleeves rolled up while they shoot you with everything they've got, all at once, then you drop trousers and get some more. You know nothing about me.

A few of my friends used to be in the Chairforce and told me about their forced vaccination schedules. One had severe adverse reactions to some now-banned anthrax vaccine. None of them took the covid vaccine. Strange you think we should all be as subservient as you were when you were a Marine. I mean, I get it, I want our armed forces to have a solid CoC that can be relied upon, but pushing it to the point where you…

[deleted]

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#344

Post by mrj »

sjwalter wrote: post #337
mrj wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try joining the Marines. I remember walking in a line with sleeves rolled up while they shoot you with everything they've got, all at once, then you drop trousers and get some more. You know nothing about me.

A few of my friends used to be in the Chairforce and told me about their forced vaccination schedules. One had severe adverse reactions to some now-banned anthrax vaccine. None of them took the covid vaccine. Strange you think we should all be as subservient as you were when you were a Marine. I mean, I get it, I want our armed forces to have a solid CoC that can be relied upon, but pushing it to the point where you…

There’s a time for independence and there’s a time to take a look at the evidence and realize that we are stronger together. This ends when we all act together. But people like you are why we will struggle to ever fully get rid of the virus. You try to sound reasonable but you’re not being reasonable when you disregard the evidence. Millions have taken it and are fine. You will be too.

The vaccines are safe.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#345

Post by sjwalter »

peter422 wrote: post #341
nradov wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you actually read the linked studies? Several of them show clear evidence that vitamin D is a potent inhibitor of COVID-19 (although less potent than vaccination). The latest meta analysis indicates that ivermectin is also a fairly potent inhibitor, although the evidence is weaker. https://doi.org/10.1097/mjt.0000000000001402

There are 4 tiny RCTs with split results. There is one medium sized almost randomized trial that shows a strong result. I'm not interested in small retrospective studies. There are 50 retrospective studies that show HCQ is an amazing drug against covid. Clearly since there is little downside to given vitamin D to people who have low levels, it can and probably should be done, but that is very far from proving that it…

Super-strange to be OK with an EUA for vaccines containing all sorts of new technologies, then quibble the evidence against vitamin D, a naturally occurring drug that we've known for many years is a potent inhibitor of ALL respiratory illness, as well as others: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756814/

Super, super strange that we'd take less-than-typical studies of novel vaccines, and then quibble the evidence on something created by nature that we know is easy to get, easy to dose, very safe, etc.

It's like someone wants to make some profit or something.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#346

Post by occamrazor »

chaostheory wrote: post #342
occamrazor wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article says that _if the virus doesn’t mutate_ the immunity is probably long lasting. It doesn’t directly address the orthogonal issue of immune escape.

Has it not already mutated?

Yes, but the mutations fortunately had only a limited effect on vaccine efficacy.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#347

Post by baq »

incrudible wrote: post #321
baq wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i disagree fundamentally about the question. for me, the question is: how can we prevent the virus from mutating enough to escape vaccine- and covid-based immunity with another variant? the answer is to stop the virus from infecting a host in which it can mutate freely and from which it can escape. we don't know these people, so we should aim to vaccinate as many as possible before it finds another person who walks a…

> i disagree fundamentally about the question. Maybe you're in the wrong thread, then? > for me, the question is: how can we prevent the virus from mutating enough to escape vaccine Probably not with a vaccine that is not quite strong enough to prevent spread, but simultaneously strong enough to put selection pressure on the virus. > the answer is to stop the virus from infecting a host in which it can mutate freely…

> Maybe you're in the wrong thread, then?

maybe. or maybe the thread is pointless and i'm just pointing it out.

> The scenario you are describing is the immunocompromised person whose body can't quite kill the virus, but also puts selection pressure on it. Such cases have been described, but whatever mutation would come out of that is not necessarily going to be much more effective at overcoming the defenses of a normal immune system.

i'd wager more than 99% of those mutations won't be more effective. i'm worried about the tail risk in the remaining 1%. i don't know how many mutations are needed for the virus to become sufficiently different for human immune system to stop being recognized and this scenario is the best way to find out.

> The Sars-CoV2 virus will almost certainly stick around and it will keep mutating, even with the best of vaccination efforts. Nature finds a way. We'll have to get used to it.

no disagreement about that. in the long run we're all dead anyway. my issue with just letting it run its course is timing and cost - the argument is that it gets much easier much quicker for all of us with the best vaccination effort compared to alternatives.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#348

Post by drclau »

bluepanda928752 wrote: post #50

What doesn't seem to be addressed is why COVID-19 germinal centre response might produce lasting immunity while, say, flu vaccination (which also produces germinal centre responses) doesn't

I believe influenza viruses mutate at a much faster pace, hence defeating the immunity achieved from a previous infection, and from vaccines. Coronaviruses seem to mutate at a slower pace, in comparison.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#349

Post by archsurface »

pacomerh wrote: post #340
archsurface wrote: post #145

Like my immune system.

A friend of mine in his late 30's from work passed away from Covid and he was a healthy person. Sometimes your immune system needs help. Please stop the "my immune system is enough" nonesense

Clearly not healthy.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#350

Post by peter422 »

sjwalter wrote: post #345
peter422 wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 4 tiny RCTs with split results. There is one medium sized almost randomized trial that shows a strong result. I'm not interested in small retrospective studies. There are 50 retrospective studies that show HCQ is an amazing drug against covid. Clearly since there is little downside to given vitamin D to people who have low levels, it can and probably should be done, but that is very far from proving that it…

Super-strange to be OK with an EUA for vaccines containing all sorts of new technologies, then quibble the evidence against vitamin D, a naturally occurring drug that we've known for many years is a potent inhibitor of ALL respiratory illness, as well as others: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756814/ Super, super strange that we'd take less-than-typical studies of novel vaccines, and then quibble the e…

So would you encourage people not get vaccinated and just take vitamin D?

Do you believe the evidence for their effectiveness is equal?

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