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Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

dolphin-emu.org

341–350 of 390 posts

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#341

For anyone shocked that ARM chips could get this far, and for the Android users in the audience, remember that Apple cofounded ARM.

I think android users are more aware that GPUs are where you'd spend money. No one was competing for fastest single thread because no one needs it. Well maybe marketers need it.

> because no one needs it.

Engineers making pronouncements like this bring me no end of amusement. Surely we've learned by now that we're pretty terrible at these sorts of guesses?

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#342
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers And many of us do . I would never buy a locked-down piece of hardware like that. But I don't think it matters either way what either side wants, because it's what Apple wants that matters. They want to keep their walled garden's walls air tight, and there are apparently enough people that are OK living in that garden that it works. I'm positive tha…

You are going to have to accept that "general purpose computers" are a niche market. The general public strongly prefers a locked-down, curated experience where the vendor takes responsibility for assuring that the content for the device is of sufficient quality and will not bring harm to themselves or their device.

What's more, Google is re-doing their calculus -- and reaching the same conclusion that Apple did. More restrictions are being implemented into Android with each major release.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like everything in technology, you have a choice. If you want openness at the expense of security and privacy, you can purchase an Android or Windows device. If you want security and privacy more than openness, you buy an iPhone. The Hacker News crowd is unique in that we want to have our cake and eat it too by making the iPhone work more like Android and expressing outrage that such a choice exists. So even though I…

>openness at the expense of security This is a false dilemma. You can have both.

You can have both, but only if you take responsibility for managing the system, setting policies, making sure that updates are applied, screening for malware, etc.

Apple does all that for you. That's why they win. "General purpose computing" is for nerds -- ordinary people would much rather have an iPhone.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#344
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting, but I don't want to buy apple hardware. When I buy an Apple product, I'm paying for the integration the software and all the other stuff in addition to the hardware. That's a steep tax. I just want an arm chip performance and free software on top of it

Are you sure about that? Mac mini price is $700. Let's take ryzen 5600x for comparison which is worse on almost each metric than m1: Processor: $300 Motherboard: $200 good 256 gb SSD: $100(doesn't seem to come close to apple's) 8 GB RAM: $40 Case/cooling: $100 Even in the configuration which is worse in each of the spec, you are hitting more than apple including apple tax. But yeah, I agree if you want an upgrade of…

>Let's take ryzen 5600x for comparison which is worse on almost each metric than m1

On what metric? Single-thread performance seems to be comparable and in multi-threaded workloads Ryzen seems to be up to 50% faster.

>Motherboard: $200

Huh? AM4 motherboards seems to be available for around $70

>Case/cooling: $100

Processor includes box cooler, so you are now counting it twice.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#345

For anyone shocked that ARM chips could get this far, and for the Android users in the audience, remember that Apple cofounded ARM.

I think android users are more aware that GPUs are where you'd spend money. No one was competing for fastest single thread because no one needs it. Well maybe marketers need it.

> No one was competing for fastest single thread because no one needs it.

A big part of the reasons why web applications are so darn fast on the M1 is it’s single-threaded performance. Remember that JavaScript itself is single-threaded

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#346

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

This article isn't about the iPad, it's about the Mac. The Mac supports JITs. The only conformance change they had to make was marking memory as either write or execute, as opposed to both at the same time. You can execute whatever arbitrary code you want on an M1 Mac, up to and including completely custom kernels, if the user set their Mac to allow such code. It's not locked down and its not an iPad or an iPhone. I…

> It's not locked down

You can't run unsigned ARM binaries on M1 Macs. Hell, you can't run un-Notarized apps on any Mac running a recent macOS release without knowing some arcane trick to open them.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#347

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

It’s undeniable that a whole class of ARM software was prevented from even being conceived because it has to pass the App Store’s Byzantine set of rules. On the other hand, I see so many software developers vehemently refuse to notarize their Mac versions. Notarization is far less egregious and it pains me to see so many straight up refuse to even consider it as an alternative to the iron grip of the App Store.

> I see so many software developers vehemently refuse to notarize their Mac versions.

Good, I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this.

> Notarization is far less egregious and it pains me to see so many straight up refuse to even consider it as an alternative to the iron grip of the App Store.

Notarization requires developers to pay Apple $100 every year if they want to notarize their software.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#348
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-Mac developer, what does it mean to notarize a piece of software? Is that something you need to do in order to be able to run a piece of software these days?

It's used as part of Gatekeeper for software downloaded from the internet. See https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/notarizin... for the notarisation process and https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202491 for the customer-facing documentation, which includes how to work around it when needed. Gatekeeper can be totally disabled via sudo spctl --master-disable.

> Gatekeeper can be totally disabled via sudo spctl --master-disable.

If you had to do this on Linux to run software that wasn't notarized by Red Hat, HN posters would write about how unfriendly and developer hostile Linux is.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am absolutely not an expert on microarchitecture, but I’ve had the same questions and tried my best to figure out answers. Here’s my understanding of the situation: > It isn't just because it is RISC, it's Apple magic? It’s both. We’ve known for decades that RISC was the “right” design, but x86 was so far ahead of everyone else that switching architectures was completely infeasible (even Intel themselves tried and…

> We’ve known for decades that RISC was the “right” design, but x86 was so far ahead of everyone else that switching architectures was completely infeasible All the experts I listened or read to, they told that instruction set doesn't matter and it is the insignificant thing. The part that matters is branch and data prediction, and caching. Also, even intel transforms an instruction into RISC like microinstructions i…

> All the experts I listened or read to, they told that instruction set doesn't matter and it is the insignificant thing. The part that matters is branch and data prediction, and caching. Also, even intel transforms an instruction into RISC like microinstructions internally.

That's commonly repeated, but is a misunderstanding. Up until this point the difference was mostly that an x86 decoder took up more chip area, which given Intel's historical leads in process tech was no big deal to them.

However now we're pushing chips to go wider than ever. Intel and AMD haven't been able to push past a 4x superscalar decoder. The instruction set just has too many potential chained dependencies to make it work. You'd have to slow cycle time or introduce additional pipeline stages such that performance in the net is worse. Meanwhile M1 decodes at 8x.

This dovetails into what you're saying about stalls caused by prediction and caching. Once the stall is resolved M1 can race ahead, assigning work into the shadow registers at potentially twice the peak rate.

You're being a bit hyperbolic about Windows backwards compatibility. Much of the enterprise software world is still running programs that were written against windows XP just fine, and MS is not going to rock that boat any time soon.

The big difference with Apple's transition is precisely due to the translation (note not emulation). I've lived through 3 of their ISA changes now and they've all been nearly seamless. The big difference is Mac users have been ok with sunsetting the old apps ~5 years after the transition, something that's a total nonstarter in Windows land.

Rosetta2 is so stinking fast I have not even had to think one whip about what's native vs translated.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#350
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the issue on ios isn't that W^X is enforced, its that you can't mark a page that was writable as executable (whereas W^X just implies that a page can't be both writable and executable at the same time ). Firefox has been W^X compliant by default since 2016 as its considered more secure in general.

Ah I see. The iOS restriction makes sense, even though it's more aggressive.

Does it though?

They could block all execution for total security.

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