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Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

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Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#341

Post by walshemj »

biztos wrote: post #29

I'm a native English speaker who's lived in other countries a lot and speaks three languages, now trying to learn a fourth. The weirdness of "English" is something I think about often. For starters, you have to live in it before you can really speak it. And our spelling is the least rational, least consistent thing I've ever seen. In addition to the weird way we spell a lot of things, many of the sounds are not prono…

I could see some one who learnt formal English in a school setting in another country might struggle with Geordie, a strong scots English or full "Yam Yam"

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#342

Post by ftio »

anotherhue wrote: post #112
chris_j wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (native English speaker) have noticed this a lot. The example that I remember most vividly is receiving advice while trying to cook food on a barbecue: A Portuguese speaking friend suggested that I "move the burgers to the periphery of the barbecue". It make perfect sense but sounded incredibly fancy to me. A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education.

An Italian friend of mine, when struggling to find the word for a Satellite Dish, called it a parabola. I was very impressed.

As an Italian-American who rarely gets to speak Italian, my visits to my family in Italy are full of these kinds of things, but in the other direction, naturally.

I end up using less common, typically larger words mostly because they have direct equivalents in English, including a whole bunch that end in -ation, which in Italian typically end in -azione.

My relatives joke with me that I'm a weird, overeducated dummy who "knows" these big words but doesn't know basic idioms.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#343

Post by mariodiana »

blt wrote: post #291
mariodiana wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a neologism. Some people love it. (Actually, it seems like a lot of people do.) To others however, it strikes the ear as awkward sounding. I wouldn't say there's anything "wrong" about it. It's a matter of taste. It's a bit of a pet peeve for some of us. I bought a book a couple of years ago: iOS and macOS Performance Tuning. I took note that the author had not used the word "performant" even once in the book's…

The main argument against "performant" isn't linguistic, it's technical. "Performant" is vague. It can always be replaced by something more descriptive like "fast", "uses little memory", "asymptotically optimal", "parallelizable", and so on.

Thank you. In light of the fact that George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" essay was just recently posted here, I want to acknowledge that you make a better case than I do. One should aim to make one's meaning plain, as opposed to resorting to inflated (and often vague) language.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#344

Post by kilbuz »

pmoriarty wrote: post #255
oblio wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Romanian "a utiliza" is "to use". I imagine it's the same in other Latin languages. So, see the original comment :-)

I'm talking about native English speakers. It's not as grating if it comes from a non-native speaker, who you know hasn't mastered the language yet. When a native speaker says it, it feels like they should know better and are intentionally trying to make themselves sound smart.

I think a lot of the usage you reference is blindly picked up in corporate environments, and has little to do with trying to 'sound smart'. My wife laughs at my vocabulary on my Zoom calls. After listening to myself, I have to agree.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#345

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

StavrosK wrote: post #336
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does. To be honest, I don't know how I'd phrase "on the edge of the barbecue". "Στην απέξω μεριά"? We also use "περιφέρεια" for the circumference of a circle so I could say "στην περιφέρεια της ψησταριάς" to make a nerdy joke... but that supports your point.

"Στην άκρη" I'd say.

Ah, right. Dammit. I'm starting to forget my Greek...

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#346

Post by pmoriarty »

35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #340
pmoriarty wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education." There's the opposite problem, too, where people with poor educations will try to use fancy words to impress people (but often wind up just sounding pretentious). One of my pet peeves is hearing people using the word "utilize". Just say "use"! It sounds far less pretentious and means the exact same thing. I…

The concept of "U English" vs. "non-U English" was written about in the '50s. Don't say "pardon?", say "what?" or you'll be marked as a commoner ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English

The US has had a long history of anti-intellctualism[1], and in the 1950's "egghead" was popularized as a term of abuse against intellectuals.[2]

It's possible that the popular disdain towards the use of long words in the US is related to this anti-intellectual attitude.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_Americ...

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egghead

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#347

Post by kadoban »

trashtester wrote: post #326
biztos wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can do that in a British accent, no matter how bad it is, you will immediately be pundit material in the USA. And also more attractive!

I wonder if that also applies to someone from the Hebrides. I used to have a supervisor from there, and even his English coleagues often had problem to understand his dialect.... Or is "British" still an euphemism for "English"?

I think in this exact usage it's a euphemism for some kind of specific London accent that I don't actually know the name for.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#348

Post by today20201014 »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #288

>> Sergio Serrano has participated in many international scientific conferences across the globe. "In a typical situation, a group of foreign researchers are discussing a complex technical issue with very precise and elaborate formal English," Serrano says, "until an American joins the group." I'm not American but I don't like this. If an American author had written that everything is fine until "a foreigner joins th…

I'm an American; I don't like this, too.

My experience mirrors what is described in the article, but only with people from Europe. Non-native English speakers from Europe look down on Americans, in a sort of "gate-keeping" manner where Europeans "own" the language. They have a better grasp of the "precise and elaborate formal English" and do not hesitate to correct Americans and tell them they don't understand grammar and are uneducated. (I'm inclined to agree with them.)

My experience speaking with non-native speakers from Asia, India, and Central & South America has been different. Maybe we are more willing to accept that there is a language barrier, but no one "owns" it.

And, like the article says, trying to use a culturally relevant idiom is a futile task.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#349

Post by wldcordeiro »

mirkules wrote: post #316
azangru wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the first seems to be a native speaker What makes you think so?

It might help to have a strong definition of “native”. The problem is that the definition changes slightly from person to person. In my opinion, “native speaker” should mean “a person who is completely fluent in a language and formulates their thoughts in it.” But I’m wondering if we should include “social norms” in the definition of “native”... I did not speak English until we moved to America when I was 12. Now I h…

So would someone have two or more native languages if they can change which one they formulate their thoughts in? I guess that just emphasizes your point or the article's point more that it's a vague term to begin with.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#350

Post by ptudan »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #318
caymanjim wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're confused about how Americans dress. Even people with money dress casually, and we don't dress up to get on airplanes. In fact, most of us dress extra-casual on planes. I normally won't wear sweatpants in public, but I will on a plane, because it's far too uncomfortable to wear pants and a belt while crammed into a tiny seat. People who normally dress well will wear pajamas on planes.

As an American who travels, it is incredibly embarrassing to be associated with people like this. All I can think of when I see someone in pajamas on a plane is "hellooo white trash". I also feel bad for the flight attendants who have put so much into their appearance, and then have to babysit a sleepover party in a metal tube.

Dude, I think you should loosen up a bit. When I see someone calling people white trash for wearing comfortable clothing, all I can think of is "they think they are better than other people for no reason".
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