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Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

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Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#341

Post by fredophile »

awillen wrote: post #277
411111111111111 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the only difference is that Amazon is a digital marketplace, so they can and do let their users pioneer what gets sold. Space is at a premium with a physical location, so the likelihood of an actual store exploiting that is extremely unlikely

Unlikely? I literally just described an example of Costco doing this right now with vodka. That's not a hypothetical - Kirkland brand vodka is a real thing. Your logic is backwards - when space is at a premium, making the most profit off each item in that space is critical. It makes more sense for Costco to do this than it does for Amazon, not less.

Store brand products are not new and not the issue. Let's pretend that Costco didn't currently sell vodka at all. If Costco wants to know if they should start selling vodka or bottling their own vodka and selling that they don't have access to the sales data from the liquor store next door to Costco. Amazon is letting other businesses take the risks and using sales data from those businesses to outcompete them.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#342

Post by vkou »

soperj wrote: post #320
mrandish wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's often not the case. Retailers like Costco, Walmart, Best Buy etc have a wide variety of different selling arrangements. I've sold products through all three and often did so on terms that gave them full right of return for any unsold product as well as significantly delayed payment. This combination basically nets out to be financially the same as pure consignment. They won't pay me for my product until well a…

>(and they always drag out the payment beyond the already-extended due date) That's pretty much their business model isn't it? Make money on investing for the days between product sold and payment.

You can only make a little money on that because interest rates are near zero, and investments with non-zero returns carry risk.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#343

Post by cowpig »

dehrmann wrote: post #303
jasallen wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is between retailer and marketplace. Both Amazon and Costco are retailers, and both could use that knowledge to decide what products to self-source for better retail margins. Either way, still a retailer, but maybe also a manufacturer / wholesaler. But Amazon is also a marketplace. In that role it acts as a "rentable retail space". Using the data of the retailers in your marketplace to decide what to m…

> But Amazon is also a marketplace Meanwhile, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276 "Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court" It seems both regulators and Amazon want whether or not it's a marketplace to go both ways whenever it's convenient.

In an ideal world regulators want to define Amazon as whatever best fits with the public's best interest (as opposed to what is convenient)

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#344

Post by [deleted] »

cowpig wrote: post #343
dehrmann wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Amazon is also a marketplace Meanwhile, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276 "Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court" It seems both regulators and Amazon want whether or not it's a marketplace to go both ways whenever it's convenient.

In an ideal world regulators want to define Amazon as whatever best fits with the public's best interest (as opposed to what is convenient)

[deleted]

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#345

Post by TameAntelope »

addicted wrote: post #309
nataz wrote: post #302

The most interesting part of the HN discussion is not about the definition of what Amazon is doing, but the occasional misunderstanding of how large brick and mortar retail businesses operate at scale (see: buying shelf space/payment dependant on sales/etc). There are lots of folks on here that understand what Amazon is doing, less who understand retail businesses mechanisms. I'm not sure what Amazon is doing is lega…

It's less doing it at "scale" and more doing it as a monopoly/monopsony. Walmart has faced similar questions as well, but as much of a monopoly/monopsony as Walmart is, it's far less than what Amazon is. Moreso in non US advanced countries that actually enforce the anti trust regulations in their laws.

In what market is Amazon a monopoly?

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#346

Post by judge2020 »

addicted wrote: post #309
nataz wrote: post #302

The most interesting part of the HN discussion is not about the definition of what Amazon is doing, but the occasional misunderstanding of how large brick and mortar retail businesses operate at scale (see: buying shelf space/payment dependant on sales/etc). There are lots of folks on here that understand what Amazon is doing, less who understand retail businesses mechanisms. I'm not sure what Amazon is doing is lega…

It's less doing it at "scale" and more doing it as a monopoly/monopsony. Walmart has faced similar questions as well, but as much of a monopoly/monopsony as Walmart is, it's far less than what Amazon is. Moreso in non US advanced countries that actually enforce the anti trust regulations in their laws.

> Moreso in non US advanced countries that actually enforce the anti trust regulations in their laws.

I think it's pretty disingenuous to say that the U.S. isn't enforcing its antitrust laws, the DOJ certainly opens investigations against these conglomerates, they just don't take them to court, so there might not be enough info for the DOJ to think there's a case. We don't know the full story for any of these cases and thus can't become sole arbitrators of whether or not something is an antitrust violation.

The problem is probably that the DOJ doesn't like to bring cases against people in they they don't have hard evidence and a high likelihood to succeed in their prosecution - they have an average 92% success rate in the cases they bring against defendants[0]. I'm not one to say how to run the DOJ but chances are they could find more damning documents via court discovery (if they think they have enough of a case to get to discovery, at least).

0: https://www.justice.gov/doj/page/file/1249306/download#page=... (page 16)

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#347

Post by johnebgd »

jorblumesea wrote: post #329
nataz wrote: post #302

The most interesting part of the HN discussion is not about the definition of what Amazon is doing, but the occasional misunderstanding of how large brick and mortar retail businesses operate at scale (see: buying shelf space/payment dependant on sales/etc). There are lots of folks on here that understand what Amazon is doing, less who understand retail businesses mechanisms. I'm not sure what Amazon is doing is lega…

I don't think that's a fair comparison. It would be like if Amazon owned the entire mall, and would kick out competitors and establish their own stores once they become profitable. Amazon is both a retailer in the sense that they sell products, but also owns the entire marketplace as well.

This.

They are also so good at building malls that they own the construction company and the supply chain of raw goods for the construction efforts (AWS). They use their scale to cut costs for construction globally so it doesn't make economic sense for others to build without them. Even some of their competitors use their construction company to build their vision of what a mall looks like. All the while Amazon is gaining valuable insights they can steal to use on their own malls.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#348

Post by cowpig »

Can we just rule that internet marketplaces cannot offer competing products on their own platforms?

The fundamental conflicts of interest will always persist otherwise.

This is going to sound radical but I think Google Search should be broken away from everything else and/or Google products should not be accessible via the search page (or allowed to buy ad space)

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#349

Post by sokoloff »

addicted wrote: post #309
nataz wrote: post #302

The most interesting part of the HN discussion is not about the definition of what Amazon is doing, but the occasional misunderstanding of how large brick and mortar retail businesses operate at scale (see: buying shelf space/payment dependant on sales/etc). There are lots of folks on here that understand what Amazon is doing, less who understand retail businesses mechanisms. I'm not sure what Amazon is doing is lega…

It's less doing it at "scale" and more doing it as a monopoly/monopsony. Walmart has faced similar questions as well, but as much of a monopoly/monopsony as Walmart is, it's far less than what Amazon is. Moreso in non US advanced countries that actually enforce the anti trust regulations in their laws.

> as much of a monopoly/monopsony as Walmart is, it's far less than what Amazon is.

Walmart retail sales are significantly larger than Amazon's retail sales.

For 2019 (chosen to avoid the disparate impact of pandemic), Walmart sold $514B while Amazon retail sold only $135B first-party and $200B third-party. Given the growth rates, Amazon will pass Walmart, but I don't think Walmart has "far less" power in retail than Amazon.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#350

Post by Railsify »

vishnugupta wrote: post #159
Railsify wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWS profits appear in Amazon's annual report, AWS is an Amazon business unit. The CEO of AWS reports to the CEO of Amazon.

Interestingly enough Andy Jassy, who is taking over the reins from Bezos, is the CEO of AWS.

I was not aware of that, interesting indeed.
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