I've noticed throughout my life that negative outcomes that primarily affect females (math test scores, wage gap, etc) are Huge Problems That Demand Immediate Action, and negative outcomes that primarily affect males (language test scores, life expectancy gap) are just kind of how it is. I'm not bitching about it or pushing an agenda, but it's not subtle.
Generally speaking, the clearly oppressed and disadvantaged group is the one we focus on in terms of equity. Men are not, nor have they ever been, that group.
Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)
341–350 of 600 posts
Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)
#342Any research on gender past infancy has a problem in that it's hard to untangle what is "innate" and what is a result of differentiated socialization based on gender. There's a lot of speculation in this forum about whether this is because of different distributions of IQ, effects of testosterone, etc., but how can we possibly determine if these are true differences or the result of parents, teachers, and other peopl…
I'll demonstrate:
Whenever statistics show an imbalance that benefits men, say in earnings, prestigious jobs, or positions of leadership, then the modern worldview dictates that this must be a result of a nefarious bias on the part of society or men as a group, aka "the patriarchy".
On the other hand, whenever the statistics show an imbalance that benefits women, such as sentencing/incarceration rates, suicide rates, or academic performance, it seems that often people are satisfied with an explanation that says the disparity is due to some innate behavioral difference in men. Occasionally, in the case of poor academics or crime rates among men you'll hear justifications along the lines of "men do worse here because of patriarchal social norms that ultimately end up hurting them", which in my opinion is a statement that subtly implies that these men's misfortune is their own fault.
Also in some cases you see outright deflection; bring up how women generally make better grades than men, and how they outnumber men by nontrivial amounts at universities? The response it "well, better education doesn't necessarily translate into better employment for women". Bring up the substantially higher male suicide rate? You'll often hear "well actually women attempt suicide more often, but use less effective methods" - and that's supposed to be the end of the conversation, as though attempting suicide with a bottle of pills (where you could still wake up in the hospital surrounded by family and friends) has the same sort of finality as shooting yourself in the head or jumping in front of a train.
Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)
#343The amount of insecurity in the thread is a little embarrassing gentlemen. Let's be open minded and entertain the possibility that women are indeed more capable and that societal constructs drag down their career opportunities.
Maybe career success isn't as important as we make it out to be and bears costs that aren't worth paying, especially for women.
Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is at least the "women are wonderful" effect covering both why female as well as male teachers may favor girls over boys, including subjective grading methods. That seems enough of a point to counter this being "unsupported nonsense". Additionally, pointing out most professors are men does not counter the argument. Merely the transition of going from a highly cooperation- and rule-following-favored environment…
That just seems like a convenient excuse. Do you have any actual data to support your claim? I notice that no one ever posts any peer-reviewed research, just a bunch of anecdotes. Also the grandparent claimed that females made rules that benefitted the same gender. In other words in a school setting a same sex relationship between teacher and student is such that the student benefits. However this clearly isn't the c…
As other comments have pointed out, the reason can easily be explained by a paradigm shift. One which shifts from a cooperation-favored environment, to a competition-favored environment. Though there is an absence of evidence, the absence of evidence doesn't prove the opposite, it merely puts into question the hypothesis.
> Also the grandparent claimed that females made rules that benefitted the same gender. In other words in a school setting a same sex relationship between teacher and student is such that the student benefits. However this clearly isn't the case per my college performance citation.
The GP stated this goes for women. Clearly, that doesn't claim the same goes for men. In fact, this is entirely in-line with the "women are wonderful" phenomenon, though I would personally believe other factors are at play beyond this.
Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)
#345Throwaway because this is one of the data points you are required to ignore in polite society. Girls receive better grades until you blind the teachers. Teachers are biased in favor of girls, maybe because their behavior is better. The effect of biased grading is enormous and a huge disadvantage to our boys. > Gender-biased grading accounts for 21 percent of boys falling behind girls in math during middle school. [1]…
Serious question, why is this a data point we are required to ignore? There's been a lot of discourse about bias lately, so I feel like this is a data point people will welcome hearing. Thanks for sharing it.
Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)
#346Do we want equality in this area? Should we change schooling to make it easier for boys than girls until we get to 50/50 achievement? Or should we retain the status quo to boost the chances of women succeeding later in their lives when they do not achieve in their careers at the same level as men?
We have known what the problem is and what the solution is for a long time. - Standard curriculum for non-standard children, and finding out what makes a child special and encouraging that at the expense of other things.
Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)
#347Anyone with young boys and girls will notice that girls are much more likely to obey rules and instructions. A lot of doing well in school is about following rules and instructions, and it seems pretty natural that girls will do better. Also, most teachers are women. I haven't checked, but I'd assume most school administrators are women. It seems natural that they'd construct a system that's more suited for females t…
> I'd assume most school administrators are women. At least in the United States, this isn’t at all true. A disproportionate number of administrators (especially when adjusted for the normal male/female teacher breakdown) are male. There have also been many studies that show that teachers call on boys more, praised them more (they acknowledge girls, praise boys), and talk with them more. So your assumptions are compl…
Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
> son needs more discipline This does not seem like the right conclusion. More like "needs running around time and free play". Cf. e.g. https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/discipline-problem-solutio... https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/beyond-discipline-article/
You made a lot of assumptions in that assessment.
They crave (and physically need) hours every day spent running and climbing and swinging and rolling around, chasing each-other, etc.
Furthermore, many of them are quite self-directed and stubborn. They get some idea in their head about something to try, and then want to carry the plan through and can get extremely frustrated if thwarted (whether by the plan's intrinsic problems, or by interference from other people). Sometimes the plans are problematic (e.g. «I wonder if I can get adult attention if I take every toy my younger sibling wants to play with, until they start sobbing»), but often the goals/plans are perfectly innocuous, but adults step in and block action for poor reasons or no reason at all, or because the adult wants the kid to be focusing on something different. After being thwarted at a few different projects in a row, kids can become very agitated and defiant, or even melt down completely.
Once the kid has accomplished their immediate goal or given up on it, they sometimes instantly switch to some completely different idea, and don't want to switch back.
It is incredibly difficult to convince a big group of young kids (and especially boys it seems, though many girls are also very active) to sit still and focus on some specific close work without conflicts, especially when they have pent up energy. Trying to force them ends up creating a confrontation, and plenty of kids are looking around for ways to push boundaries and get attention. This is entirely normal age-appropriate behavior, and should not be pathologized. Letting the kids choose their own activities and decide when to switch from one to another goes a long way toward avoiding unnecessary bad feelings.
Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
That just seems like a convenient excuse. Do you have any actual data to support your claim? I notice that no one ever posts any peer-reviewed research, just a bunch of anecdotes. Also the grandparent claimed that females made rules that benefitted the same gender. In other words in a school setting a same sex relationship between teacher and student is such that the student benefits. However this clearly isn't the c…
The "women are wonderful" effect doesn't stop. I would ask you actually search around a little and read my point again, as well as the many other comments, before dragging down the conversation with phrases such as "convenient excuse". As other comments have pointed out, the reason can easily be explained by a paradigm shift. One which shifts from a cooperation-favored environment, to a competition-favored environmen…
How do you reconcile this with discrimination towards women?
Also the whole trope that women somehow cannot compete and can only collaborate, as if the two things are at odds, is also exhausting.
Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)
#350Earlier quoted context omitted.
> son needs more discipline This does not seem like the right conclusion. More like "needs running around time and free play". Cf. e.g. https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/discipline-problem-solutio... https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/beyond-discipline-article/
Two of my kids (one a boy and one a girl) act absolutely nuts and "must" have something like ADHD... until you make sure they run around outside at least 4hrs a day, consistently. Then they're fine. Unfortunately this is effectively impossible to achieve for 2-3 months every year, with school in session and short Winter days. They're in lower elementary school but I think their total recess time per day is only about…
On the whole I've been fortunate in life, but it's not an exaggeration to say my life would be dramatically different if I'd learned what was going on as a kid. Instead it was interpreted as a character flaw: that I just wasn't applying myself. Even though I know that's wrong now intellectually, emotionally I still had that message beat into me for years as a kid, and that doesn't just go away sadly. I'd be particularly vigilant about teachers creating that dynamic, as sometimes they do it with good intentions but fail to understand doubling down on a "tough love" approach will utterly backfire here.