Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just one comment on this: > Teachers unions may care more about teachers ... That's precisely the point of a union. It's an organization to protect its members. It's the purpose of the school system overall, including principals, school boards, and so on, to care about teaching kids.
Teachers and police officers are public servants. If they want to bargain, they should be negotiating with the public, not government officials. Otherwise, it's just collusion.
Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union
341–350 of 378 posts
Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union
#342Earlier quoted context omitted.
So how do we get european style unions here in america? How is it that they are able to avoid those issues and what lessons can we take that aren't "america just can't do unions right."
Repeal Taft-Hartley.
Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union
#343Earlier quoted context omitted.
If sexual harassment really exists a lawyer will be glad to help. Companies that don't take care of it end up in big trouble - to your lawyers advantage. Sexual harassment is one of several things that the legal system takes seriously.
That's just objectively false. Look at all the cases of sexual harassment coming out where the perpetrator had been doing it for decades to dozens of people without any consequences. Getting sexual harassment claims taken seriously is an uphill battle and often harms the careers of the people who complain.
Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is when anecdotes about isolated abuses are used to reject unions outright rather than looking at whether unions as a whole would benefit society. You could argue from personal experience that you went to a bad school therefore all schools are bad, or you had a bad experience with therefore all people of that sort are bad. It's just not very convincing.
Well, if you look at large-scale carefully controlled data, unionized firms tend to be at least 10% less productive than their non-unionized counterparts.[1] The most defensible thing you can say about this is that the cost is primarily borne by the shareholders rather than the consumers. Thus you tend to see that the best unions for workers tend to be in large, established, highly profitable firms with little to no…
It's not large scale or even necessarily generalisable. I don't think a study limited to 83 "Sawmills in the Western U.S." can be presented as an example of unionisation in general.
> However Amazon is barely profitable as it currently stands
Amazon actively avoids profitability... Modern economies do not reward profitability, they increasingly reward the promise of potential future profitability. Amazon is perfectly capable of earning a healthy profit, but it is actively incentivised not to in favour of chasing further growth. Uber, WeWork, and Doordash all exemplify this attitude; although it could be argued that they are incapable of profitability at all.
Companies are actively choosing to remain in the red in order to stack the house of cards that little bit higher, steal a little bit more of their market before they turn around and exploit the fragile and artificially inflated position they've bought their way into.
> The most defensible thing you can say about this is that the cost is primarily borne by the shareholders rather than the consumers.
Surely the most defensible thing is that the workers are fairly compensated and work in humane conditions? We seem unable to convince Western corporations to not use child or slave labour, but at least we don't attempt to justify it by saying "Iphones would be more expensive without Uighur work camps".
Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union
#345Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Reagan's firing of the air traffic controllers It was illegal for the controllers to strike.
Unless I'm missing something obvious, striking is the only leverage a union has. If striking is illegal, what's their leverage?
They knew when they took the job that striking was illegal. Reagan reminded them of that, and said he'd fire them if they broke the law. They did anyway, and Reagan wasn't bluffing. Reagan could have also prosecuted them, but (wisely) chose not to.
Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union
#346Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sometime during the last year the usually heavily statist left became heavily corporatist. I'm not sure what to make of it.
Based on purely anecdotal evidence, I agree. I've seen an increased number of supposed "eat the rich" types voicing support for corporate interests, to an almost laughable degree of irony. For instance, Twitter users who have "#eattherich" in their bio saying that social media should be left unregulated because the owners of the platforms should be able to do whatever they want with it.
Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Is there such a mechanism for unions? Unions should be democratic. The workers in the union should collectively decide how it is run, and it should have a fairly flat hierarchical structure. So if you feel that your union does not sufficiently represent your interests, you can get rid of the leadership and change the union for the better. As opposed to companies where you essentially have the choice to tolerate it o…
The problem is that democracy is imperfect, it can be (and is) frequently gamed and manipulated. Many people are worried about the following scenario: - Software engineers unionize - Some "bad" rules get implemented, perhaps passing vote by misleading slogans or over-represented groups etc. Maybe it was a narrow 51% vs 49% vote. - Top talent leaves, over time that 51% in favor of the bad rules becomes a larger and la…
Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union
#348I have to imagine unions have a bit of an uphill battle right now, they took some major black eyes in 2020: - Police unions openly declaring war on their own citizens - Teachers unions causing general chaos in school reopening plans I understand that public sector unions are a different beast, but purely from an optics perspective I have to imagine public sentiment for unions can't be very high right now.
I've never fully understood public unions to be honest. Unions used to be the best way to protect yourself from a bad employer...but the employer is the government (and to some extent the people). It used to be that public sector workers made less in exchange for better benefits, but in the last few years the war was waged on the public to increase wages to that of "private companies". Now teachers in my state make m…
Also this “9 months a year” thing is really getting tired. Every teacher I’ve ever met works 60-80 hours a week or more, including weekends. When they work does not correlate to how much they work.
Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sounds like a planned economy. We know how well that works.
China has been doing okay using that sort of high level planning, where the government supervises a lot of the economy and limits the movement of capital.
No.
Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union
#350Earlier quoted context omitted.
In most union workplaces, one of the first contract demands is exclusivity, where the employer can only hire members. This is referred to as a " closed shop" [1] When a closed shop forms, works have a choice to join or leave. Some places allow non-union workers, but they must pay part of their salary to the union. This is called and "agency shop" [2] For example, if you become a police officer and do not choose to jo…
Well, since the Taft-Hartley act of 1947 banned closed shops, I'm not sure that that's really the first of contract demands anymore, at least in the US.