School or Prison • Hacker News Board

Re: School or Prison

#341

Post by claudiawerner » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 2:48 AM UTC

dash2 wrote: post #47

cyberbanjo wrote: post #4

Is it surprising that the cellular prison, with its regular chronologies, forced labour, its authorities of surveillance and registration, its experts in normality, who continue and multiply the functions of the judge, should have become the modern instrument of penality? Is it surprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, which all resemble prisons? Michel Foucault

This is one of the most delightfully overblown quotes of all time. But Herbert Marcuse went one better: he compared amusement parks to concentration camps.

I don't think Marcuse should be taken lightly on this point. As a Jew during the second world war and an immigrant to the US, he worked with Adorno and others who regularly (and correctly, in my opinion) viewed the Holocaust as humanity's greatest horror and a turning point of modernity.

Re: School or Prison

#342

Post by TaupeRanger » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 2:48 AM UTC

highmastdon wrote: post #160

Just the idea of a school is worse than a prison: - it’s mandatory - closed confinement - not allowed to do what you want in that closed area - you’re being told what to do for at least 8-14 years - you’re being told when to pee - during the years there is no choice in what you want to learn And at the end of your school/studies you’re asked to be creative and responsible

While we're being hyperbolic and unhelpful, guess what? If you leave kids to their own devices they will play video games and watch Til Tok all day. Good luck with that.

Re: School or Prison

#343

Post by justinclift » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 2:48 AM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #335

qwtel wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

There are plenty of crimes that are totally victimless for which we as a society "punish" people. I think you're right that the average person wants punishment for someone who has wronged them, but (for reasons only God knows) I think the average person also wants punishment for people that haven't wronged them at all, but just did something they think is immoral. I'll never forget seeing a neighbor call the cops on…

Sounds like that guy is a control freak. Some people are like that.

They don't seem to improve the world, when they do crap like this. :(

Re: School or Prison

#344

Post by alsetmusic » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 2:48 AM UTC

qwtel wrote: post #313

plutonorm wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It's because we possess empathy.

not for those who were wronged in the first place

> not for those who were wronged in the first place

What a shitty and presumptuous assumption to make.

Re: School or Prison

#345

Post by pengaru » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 2:49 AM UTC

worik wrote: post #280

vntok wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you can sue them in pretty much all cases if they put their hands on your kid.

I think you are dreaming. Have you done that? Sue the powerful (a school board) from a position of powerlessness (black working class in the ghetto)? Probably not, unfair question. Do you really think it is a realistic prospect? Really?

There are toll-free hotlines for reporting teachers engaging in child abuse.

Obstructing a child from using the bathroom who needs to is a form of abuse. If that teacher then physically restrains or otherwise contacts/touches the child to prevent them, especially if it culminates in their wetting/soiling themselves, this starts resembling something along the lines of sexual abuse.

If there's one thing the USA can be relied on it's both society and the law leaning heavily in the direction of protecting the children, to a fault.

This situation is literally just a phone call away from completely ruining the teacher's career if not life.

Re: School or Prison

#346

Post by tartoran » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 2:49 AM UTC

wisty wrote: post #302

throwaway998662 wrote: post #266

As someone who's been to prison and school, lots of comments here sound pretty tone deaf. Prison in the USA is really bad. Yes school is authoritarian, but most popular entertainment on prisons downplays how bad it really gets. Watch some interviews of people who have actually been to prison. Murder and rape is common (I saw it happen), you will get your possessions stolen under the threat of murder/rape, you'll prob…

> it doesn't serve as a deterrent (based on talking to ~50 prisoners about this) 1. Talking to prisoners doesn't mean it's not a deterrent for the rest of the population. This is a massive selection bias, it's like saying diet and exercise doesn't work because morbidly obese people say it doesn't work for them. 2. People sometimes lie (often first to themselves), especially about their motivations. This is like an an…

So you’re saying prison is simply a deterrent for the unimprisoned? So it’s okay there is rape and murder in there because it makes people stay on the right side of the law on the outside of prisons? Is that what you’re saying or am i misunderstanding?

I think it’s best for a society to implement policies to reduce crime not to scare people into complying with the law. The alternative is quite negative. Also, let’s remind ourselves that people are imprisoned in the US for stupid things like smoking pot, not paying tickets, scared into guilty pleas. Some of those people harden and become career criminals in prison and in the end it results in more crime.

Re: School or Prison

#347

Post by escape_goat » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 2:50 AM UTC

smbullet wrote: post #334

escape_goat wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took the time to respond to what I felt strongly about, and maybe characterizing criticism as a "personal attack" describes how it makes you feel, but that doesn't mean that it describes what it is.

Calling somebody sheltered is objectively a personal attack on this forum.

I absolutely intended to tell an entire category of people that they were sheltered. I disagree with you, but it's true that I've certainly seen the term appear within the context of a personal attack in the past, so I agree that if I had found a better way in which to express my anger and disapproval then that would have been preferable.

Re: School or Prison

#348

Post by Merman_Mike » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 2:51 AM UTC

throwaway998662 wrote: post #312

wisty wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it doesn't serve as a deterrent (based on talking to ~50 prisoners about this) 1. Talking to prisoners doesn't mean it's not a deterrent for the rest of the population. This is a massive selection bias, it's like saying diet and exercise doesn't work because morbidly obese people say it doesn't work for them. 2. People sometimes lie (often first to themselves), especially about their motivations. This is like an an…

Most people who end up in prisoners in the USA are reoffenders. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world and very high crime rates. So when I talk about deterrence I'm mostly talking about reoffenders. I.e, the prisoners I talked to coming back. I think they're more likely to commit crimes after prison, not less!! Do you think people would lie, in a heavily monitored prison, about wanting to never come…

Thanks for posting in this thread. I've read all of your comments.

If prison is as horrible as you describe, why do you think it's not much of a deterrent?

Re: School or Prison

#349

Post by escape_goat » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 2:53 AM UTC

justinclift wrote: post #337

escape_goat wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took the time to respond to what I felt strongly about, and maybe characterizing criticism as a "personal attack" describes how it makes you feel, but that doesn't mean that it describes what it is.

> if you do not understand that then it is because you live in a very sheltered world This is the part which is a personal attack. You have some time to edit your comment to restate that, if you're up for it. :)

Fair enough, I've restated that.

Re: School or Prison

#350

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 2:54 AM UTC

escape_goat wrote: post #318

wisty wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it doesn't serve as a deterrent (based on talking to ~50 prisoners about this) 1. Talking to prisoners doesn't mean it's not a deterrent for the rest of the population. This is a massive selection bias, it's like saying diet and exercise doesn't work because morbidly obese people say it doesn't work for them. 2. People sometimes lie (often first to themselves), especially about their motivations. This is like an an…

Could we just not do things like this. I'm sorry to be singling anyone out but there is a pattern here. People, the "well actually" rebuttals that you pull out of thin air in two minutes are not a useful or meaningful response to someone's reportage of their lives experience and do not facilitate the quality of discussion that brought you to HN in the first place, and if you do not understand that then consider that…

[deleted]