The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire • Hacker News Board

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#341

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:35 AM UTC

charonn0 wrote: post #183

underseacables wrote: post #61

This might seem extreme, but I think we should allow people to make up their own minds about what is truth and what is not. They are very clear cases for censorship (direct threats of violence for example) but Questioning the outcome of an election should not be one of them. Somehow we’ve allowed corporations to be the arbiters of truth in this nation, enter control the reins of communication.

Allowing people to make up their own minds doesn't mean you have to provide a platform for views you don't share.

[deleted]

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#342

Post by thorough » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:35 AM UTC

charonn0 wrote: post #276

thorough wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you suggest a company like YT can "allow people to make up their own minds" about an issue if they do not "provide a platform for views" of that issue that they "don't share"? Unless you are just making the point that YT censorship is more acceptable than government censorship (which I think everyone agrees with), then I'm not sure how you can have your cake and eat it to here.

I'm saying it's not censorship at all. Being denied by your preferred publisher is not the same as being prevented from publishing.

Right. The actor matters a huge amount. We all agree on that.

But if you run a forum and say you will not allow any view to be expressed therein that you don't agree with, you aren't in fact "allowing people to make up their own minds"---unless by "allowing people" you just mean not actively harming them for expressing views in other places, or something equally wild.

Another way of saying it is that no one would say you are "tolerant" if you only "tolerate" behavior you agree with.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#343

Post by Vomzor » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:36 AM UTC

metabagel wrote: post #221

Vomzor wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far it has not. The courts have shot down the the lawsuits on procedural grounds without looking at the evidence. Several states have held hearings were a lot of these allegations are discussed in detail. The hour long hearings are on youtube. Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkqFTUEvMoU Wisconsin State Legislature Election Hearing is still live streaming when I post this. Second edit: Why is my first comment…

"The courts have shot down the the lawsuits on procedural grounds without looking at the evidence." This is basically not a true statement. You can see for yourself here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-election_lawsuits_related... Here's one example. It clearly wasn't decided on procedural grounds. ========== Judge Matthew W. Brann dismissed the case with prejudice on November 21, citing "strained legal arguments…

Maybe procedural grounds was the wrong word but this is a good example of what I meant. "I don't want to see the evidence that may disqualify votes because it will disqualify other votes." is basically the logic. It seems weird to me but I'm not a lawyer so I could be wrong and this is perfectly normal ruling from a judge.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#344

Post by wkjenjkwenf » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:37 AM UTC

phailhaus wrote: post #313

daveidol wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have a "right" to a spot on their platform but you sure as hell have a right to complain about it and speak up against it when appropriate - which is what this piece is attempting to do.

Yes, but there seems to be a lot of "first amendment" talk in the comments.

There seems to be a lot of "there seems to be" talk in the comments. I have yet to see one comment actually calling this move a violation of the first amendment.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#345

Post by Vomzor » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:38 AM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #300

Vomzor wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be that the tech companies where champions of free speech, the ideal. It changed when generation woke entered their workforce. There has been a generational change brought on by changed values in American universities. That's what really is happening. > We asked whether people believe that citizens should be able to make public statements that are offensive to minority groups, or whether the government sho…

What a retconning farce this is. 40 years ago you could not publicly endorse recreational drug use, atheism, or interracial marriages without a substancial block of society chastating you as an incorrectable heathen. Values change, what people find acceptable and what they do not find acceptable changes.

I'm not sure what your point is? As we seem to agree values change.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#346

Post by shawnz » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:38 AM UTC

wkjenjkwenf wrote: post #331

phailhaus wrote: post #303

The author theorizes that this ban will inflame tensions, but I don't believe that's true. Look at Reddit's ban on toxic subreddits. They found that banning toxic subreddits reduced the toxicity in the website as a whole, and that "post-ban, hate speech by the same users was reduced by as much as 80-90 percent." [1] Reddit is just a closed system of communities; YouTube is one such community in the larger system of s…

Sure, it reduced tensions on reddit , but what about tensions everywhere else? The author doesn't care about how toxic Youtube is, he cares how toxic the US is. Pushing these radicals onto radical websites only further radicalizes them. That should be an axiomatic fact, yet nobody seems to understand it.

I think it's an important consideration what happens to other platforms but I don't agree it's obvious that the net effect of the bans will be negative like you are implying. I think it's pretty disingenuous to say that the problem is that people just "don't understand" your argument.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#347

Post by umvi » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:38 AM UTC

jfrunyon wrote: post #125

nprz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a theoretical world, sure. In reality it is government actors that are twisting the arms' of tech companies to remove unapproved speech. So I'm not so sure a government controlled ISP/payment processor/video platform (something like China?) would really fix the situation.

> In reality it is government actors that are twisting the arms' of tech companies to remove unapproved speech. Uhh... what? Trump and the Republicans are twisting the arms of tech companies to remove speech favoring... themselves?

USA is a union of states. Governors have quite a bit of power as well and plenty of governors endorsed this move by YouTube.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#348

Post by joe_the_user » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:38 AM UTC

effingwewt wrote: post #330

phailhaus wrote: post #303

The author theorizes that this ban will inflame tensions, but I don't believe that's true. Look at Reddit's ban on toxic subreddits. They found that banning toxic subreddits reduced the toxicity in the website as a whole, and that "post-ban, hate speech by the same users was reduced by as much as 80-90 percent." [1] Reddit is just a closed system of communities; YouTube is one such community in the larger system of s…

I see this argument all the time. Sweeping opinions you don't like under the rug doesn't make them go away. People will still hold the same opinions they will just do so where you can't hear them. I prefer the racist I can see. This pushes them underground and radicalizes them. You mentioned reddit. Do you remember what voat became when reddit closed down subs? That hate didn't go away it just moved and concentrated…

Sweeping opinions you don't like under the rug doesn't make them go away

I think we need to look at that carefully - especially, how much of youtube hate is well-considered, articulated positions and how much is people just "swept into the propaganda." That's a complicated question but think the medium of video tends to be worst form for well-considered opinions and the form most likely to just be a carrier of irrational-emotional/progandistic messages. It's real time stream of imagines/words quality makes it hard to consider the logic of an argument and easier to get swept up in the emotions of a claim as well as easier to think that, say, an image of a scientist gives legitimacy to a claim,etc. I think this quality was demonstrated back in the days of TV as mass medium.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#349

Post by pnw_hazor » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:39 AM UTC

modriano wrote: post #319

souprock wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly does a hand recount confirm? What is the point, when the accusation had nothing to do with counting? The accusation is that fraudulent ballots were mixed in with the legitimate ones. Recounting the contaminated pile tells us exactly what?

Each state has its own laws regarding elections and recounts, but in all the states I've looked at, voters have to sign either a document at their precinct if they're voting in person, or on an envelope for their ballot if they're voting by mail. If there are more votes in a precinct than there are in that precinct's voter registration database, or if they have a mismatch of signed envelopes or sheets and ballots, or…

I look forward to the signature audits.

Witness affidavits suggest some counties in some states did not follow their own laws.

Now, unfortunately, there is no legal remedy because in most cases the irregular ballots cannot be separate from the regular ballots once they are pooled together.

A lot of election laws define the rules, but few define the remedy if they are broken.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#350

Post by Talanes » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 2:41 AM UTC

effingwewt wrote: post #330

phailhaus wrote: post #303

The author theorizes that this ban will inflame tensions, but I don't believe that's true. Look at Reddit's ban on toxic subreddits. They found that banning toxic subreddits reduced the toxicity in the website as a whole, and that "post-ban, hate speech by the same users was reduced by as much as 80-90 percent." [1] Reddit is just a closed system of communities; YouTube is one such community in the larger system of s…

I see this argument all the time. Sweeping opinions you don't like under the rug doesn't make them go away. People will still hold the same opinions they will just do so where you can't hear them. I prefer the racist I can see. This pushes them underground and radicalizes them. You mentioned reddit. Do you remember what voat became when reddit closed down subs? That hate didn't go away it just moved and concentrated…

Exactly, this just seems like a great way of accelerating polarization. Make sure that everyone who has at least one opposing view is driven away to a place where they will rapidly be exposed to every opposing view.