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macOS has checked app signatures online for over 2 years

eclecticlight.co

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Re: macOS has checked app signatures online for over 2 years

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m actually curious what’s wrong about it? I read it from an outsider perspective and it’s full of very convincing arguments against “blockchains.” You’re absolutely correct that he’s writing from his understanding, but Schneider’s been in the field for decades (more than many Bitcoin proponents are old ), so I’m more inclined to believe he knows what he’s talking about than some other random person on the internet.

I think the main reason for the dissonance is that Schneier talks about the trust that happens (and maybe has to happen in real-world scenarios) while the bitcoin community likes to talk about the minimum amount of trust necessary. You don't have to trust the software, you can verify it or implement your own. You don't have to trust your internet uplink, the protocol would work over carrier pigeons or with dead drops…

This is pretty much how I interpret it as well, in regards to trust.

One detail Schneier misses though is:

> Honestly, cryptocurrencies are useless. They’re only used by speculators looking for quick riches, people who don’t like government-backed currencies, and criminals who want a black-market way to exchange money.

The second statement contradicts the first. People who don't like/trust government-backed currencies aren't fanatics. The way the big banks handle money is quite reckless and dangerous, as we've seen time and time again. And buying drugs for your own personal use should be legal (IMO) but is not. Cryptocurrencies are useful. Maybe not to most people, or to Bruce Schneier, but that (blanket) statement is simply false.

Re: macOS has checked app signatures online for over 2 years

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A common refrain in arguments that we don't need laws to protect privacy is that the market will take care of it. Stronger privacy laws hurt Google, Facebook, and Amazon far more than Apple. Most of Apple's privacy gaffs are just bonehead moves like this one which shouldn't happen, but also don't drive revenue.

I've always thought Apple's focus on privacy (putting aside the current incident) is rather clever as Google have no way to respond. Any improvements to privacy undermine their business model.

You'd think that'd be how it worked out, but funnily enough, it's net negative even when Google actively tries to enhance privacy! Using Apple's privacy-sensitive ad blocker standard made people protest the limitations of a fixed count of sites, and competitors spun it into a way for Google to advantage themselves (details on that somewhat murky, i.e. nonexistent)

We have a long way to go as an industry on keeping users _well_ informed on their privacy, and I'm afraid Apple's set us back years by morphing it into an advertising one-liner over actually helping users along.

Re: macOS has checked app signatures online for over 2 years

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re talking about Apple here. People who can afford a Mac over a cheap pc/chrome book already have disposable income and are making trade-offs with it.

That is not really true. Many people of lower income will buy a Mac after their cheap laptops break because they perceive them, correctly or not, to be the most reliable and thus less expensive on the long term laptops. Sometimes even second hand. Also, Chromebooks are not viable alternatives for many people especially of lower income. Having to rely on being always online is an issue when you can't always guarantee…

> That is not really true. Many people of lower income will buy a Mac after their cheap laptops break because they perceive them, correctly or not, to be the most reliable and thus less expensive on the long term laptops.

This is not true. The tiny user-base of OSX compared to Windows is already evidence that most people are not buying MacBooks.

Re: macOS has checked app signatures online for over 2 years

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lying to the customer about what your product does, or having secret functionality, should be a criminal offence in the same way as breaking and entering or stalking are. Then, we would find out very quickly what people value. I firmly believe this ecosystem (as in privacy violating ad and data selling business model) is only dominant because companies are able to mislead with impunity, so it's basically a form of fr…

I agree with this, to some degree. But I've also known that macOS verifies signatures for as long as it's been doing it. This was no secret, it was advertised as a feature . I assumed it wasn't being done in plaintext, because who would be so foolish as to code it that way? and I'm still plenty mad about that. Anyone could have checked this at any time, presumably people did, and the only reason it became a story is…

> This was no secret, it was advertised as a feature.

I wish you could prove this.

Re: macOS has checked app signatures online for over 2 years

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lying to the customer about what your product does, or having secret functionality, should be a criminal offence in the same way as breaking and entering or stalking are. Then, we would find out very quickly what people value. I firmly believe this ecosystem (as in privacy violating ad and data selling business model) is only dominant because companies are able to mislead with impunity, so it's basically a form of fr…

I agree with this, to some degree. But I've also known that macOS verifies signatures for as long as it's been doing it. This was no secret, it was advertised as a feature . I assumed it wasn't being done in plaintext, because who would be so foolish as to code it that way? and I'm still plenty mad about that. Anyone could have checked this at any time, presumably people did, and the only reason it became a story is…

It was mentioned in a developer presentation with very few details as to how it worked. Apple did not go into details; the information presented here was mostly reversed by app developers and security engineers.

Re: macOS has checked app signatures online for over 2 years

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean bad certificates rather than applications. OCSP can be locally cached, and Apple's implementation does exactly that. But eventually you'll have to refresh the cache and then the implementation needs to be fault tolerant (Apple's wasn't). OCSP leaks what vendors your installed applications are from. The list of leaked certificates changes daily, so any good implementation is going to check again at least seve…

I wonder how hard it'd be to serve this data via DNS, like "dig -t TXT 0xdeadbeef.ocsp.apple.com". Then you get a nice, distributed architecture with lots of built-in cache handling, and since the data is currently served via HTTP, it wouldn't expose any more data to your ISP than already is today. It would also mean that if you have 100 people in the office and a local DNS cache, then each OCSP query would be made e…

That still tells people what you’re running, though.

Re: macOS has checked app signatures online for over 2 years

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's so much wrong with this post I'm not even sure where to start. Literally almost every paragraph starts something untrue. The whole article is written from a false understanding.

If you’re going to claim Schneier is wrong on crypto stuff, you’ll want to bring a suitcase of evidence along if you want people to take your claim seriously.

If you’re going to claim Schneier is wrong on crypto stuff, you’ll want to bring a suitcase of evidence along…

How about $348 billion dollars that says he's wrong about his take on Bitcoin?

Look, I get it. I respect Schneier's knowledge on encryption but he is wrong about blockchains and about Bitcoin in particular.

But he wouldn't be the first establishment technologist/economist/politician to be wrong about Bitcoin.

As I write this, the market cap of Bitcoin is a little over $348 billion dollars [1]; there's no way it gets to this valuation if its distributed trust model didn't work.

He's making social and process arguments, not technical ones.

[1]: https://bitbo.io

Re: macOS has checked app signatures online for over 2 years

#349
post #25

Interesting, but reading the conclusion I'm fascinated in this affaire how technically knowledgeable people loose common sense to defend their favorite brand: - Per launch verification is terrible for privacy, vis-a-vis Apple and the whole network when it happens in plain text - "They should also explain how, having enjoyed their benefits for a couple of years, they’ve suddenly decided they were such a bad idea after…

How is certificate checking a terrible idea? It doesn’t leak the application name or any personal information, and Apple doesn’t store it permanently.

Developer ID is an extremely good proxy for application name.

Re: macOS has checked app signatures online for over 2 years

#350
How long they've done it has no bearing on whether it is an outrageously bad idea. It was bad in Catalina and it's bad in Big Sur.

I found it particularly annoying in Catalina to have these slow, unnecessary and intrusive online checks every time you run a Python script and it drove me up a wall until I figured out you could turn off the idiotic behavior in preferences.

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