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Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

blog.jacopo.io

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Re: Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

#341

Post by Wowfunhappy »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #333
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we’ll have to see if the file gets reverted in updates. I don’t think that’s a given? I too am not happy about the root snapshot thing...

That doesn't matter. The total signature is still different from factory default, so if any change is made to any other file it will be different and need to be updated :) What's being signed is a hash of all the individual file hashes, so any file being different from stock will mean a difference, whether it was changed in the latest update or not.

I didn't realize that still mattered once you'd disabled authenticated root...

Re: Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

#342

Post by jmnicolas »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #281
tsimionescu wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privately owned companies are not accountable to their users, they are accountable to their owners, just like publically traded ones. It's just that they have fewer owners, and you sometimes get owners with really nice ideas. Other times, you get even more tyrannical owners. Instead, what would be really nice is imagining how those companies would fare as worker-owned companies. Especially with these big internet beh…

Or not, as Soviet Union with its workers-owned factories can tell. Ever rode a Soviet car that wasn’t copypasted from Fiat?

> Ever rode a Soviet car that wasn’t copypasted from Fiat?

Isn't the Volga a copy of a Mercedes? ;)

Re: Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

#343

Post by znpy »

latexr wrote: post #338
znpy wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's crude whataboutism. going back to the original topic, apple hardware/software, i've used apple hardware and software (company-issued macbook pro and iphone 7/8). The software is great as long as you want to stay within apple-defined boudaries. If you want to go outside that, it's an experience similar if not worse than using gnu/linux. The hardware is great when the machine is brand new but decays very quickly…

> that's crude whataboutism. You’ve missed my point, which is that you could remove the word “Apple” from your original comment and it would have made no difference. One kind of fanatic does not excuse another, nor have I claimed it does . There’s no need to list Apple’s faults. I’m aware of them and support a large part of Apple criticism in the Tim Cook era (and not just technical[1]), including most of yours. Wher…

> In sum, it’s fine to decry the company but I disagree that people who like it and accept its tradeoffs should be immediately labeled as extremists.

Well Apple is notoriously abusive of the developers on its platform. Two things are particularly cried about across most of the ecosystem: the 30% cut they take off pretty much everything and the vague terms that you have to comply with, and that they enforce in a mostly random way (app gets pulled out of the app store, won't tell you why, won't tell you what you did wrong).

Now add the exhorbitant prices for their low-specced, low-quality hardware.

Now add the continual rip-off of their users.

Now add the subject of the original linked page.

At this point I think that yes, defending Apple is extremism.

It's fine to accept the tradeoffs, it's not fine to pretend they do not exists:

- "Yeah this stuff is unreasonably expensive but we have to use it"

that is honest

- "the apple ecosystem is the best for creative and developers and what apple does across all the spectrum is fine"

that is dishonest.

Re: Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

#344

Post by latexr »

znpy wrote: post #343
latexr wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's crude whataboutism. You’ve missed my point, which is that you could remove the word “Apple” from your original comment and it would have made no difference. One kind of fanatic does not excuse another, nor have I claimed it does . There’s no need to list Apple’s faults. I’m aware of them and support a large part of Apple criticism in the Tim Cook era (and not just technical[1]), including most of yours. Wher…

> In sum, it’s fine to decry the company but I disagree that people who like it and accept its tradeoffs should be immediately labeled as extremists. Well Apple is notoriously abusive of the developers on its platform. Two things are particularly cried about across most of the ecosystem: the 30% cut they take off pretty much everything and the vague terms that you have to comply with, and that they enforce in a mostl…

I find your position on what classifies someone an extremist to be itself extremist.

That is the crux of our disagreement, which I doubt we’ll resolve over an internet text interaction.

Thank you for the conversation thus far. Maybe we’ll resume it if we happen to ever meet.

Re: Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

#345

Post by znpy »

latexr wrote: post #344
znpy wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In sum, it’s fine to decry the company but I disagree that people who like it and accept its tradeoffs should be immediately labeled as extremists. Well Apple is notoriously abusive of the developers on its platform. Two things are particularly cried about across most of the ecosystem: the 30% cut they take off pretty much everything and the vague terms that you have to comply with, and that they enforce in a mostl…

I find your position on what classifies someone an extremist to be itself extremist. That is the crux of our disagreement, which I doubt we’ll resolve over an internet text interaction. Thank you for the conversation thus far. Maybe we’ll resume it if we happen to ever meet.

> I find your position on what classifies someone an extremist to be itself extremist.

I find that you're the kind of person that only find what they're looking for.

> Thank you for the conversation thus far. Maybe we’ll resume it if we happen to ever meet.

thank you too and have a nice day.

Re: Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

#346

Post by martimarkov »

danShumway wrote: post #250
martimarkov wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you remind me of which developers have been banned for standing against Apple AND haven’t broken their contract with Apple?

Security features should not be used for contract enforcement. My point stands, Apple introduced a security feature then used it for contract enforcement against a company that opposed them. There is no reason to believe that they wouldn't do the same thing here. Whether or not you believe that Epic was the villain in that story is irrelevant to the current conversation.

Oh, Epic broke their contract and therefore I think can be seen as bad for security.

If they are willing to break their contract for money what is to stop them from harvesting my data for money?

The security feature is a part of the apple ecosystem. I bought a Mac because of that not desire of it.

Re: Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

#347

Post by latexr »

znpy wrote: post #345
latexr wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find your position on what classifies someone an extremist to be itself extremist. That is the crux of our disagreement, which I doubt we’ll resolve over an internet text interaction. Thank you for the conversation thus far. Maybe we’ll resume it if we happen to ever meet.

> I find your position on what classifies someone an extremist to be itself extremist. I find that you're the kind of person that only find what they're looking for. > Thank you for the conversation thus far. Maybe we’ll resume it if we happen to ever meet. thank you too and have a nice day.

> I find that you're the kind of person that only find what they're looking for.

I expressed an opinion on a belief you seem to hold, not a value judgement on yourself. I don’t presume to know which “kind of person” you are from a short text-based interaction pertaining to single subject matter. I’ll ask you extend me the same courtesy.

Re: Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

#348

Post by tatersolid »

RonanTheGrey wrote: post #320
ThePhysicist wrote: post #19

Not sure whether the non-privacy related aspect about OCSP is less worrying. Officially Apple does this to protect innocent users from malware, but as we've seen it also allows them to remotely disable any developers' software. Not really something that I'd want on my machine.

I guess a super obvious question is, why do they do this instead of having a robust antivirus ecosystem? I mean I guess I already know the answer, "marketing". "Look, macOS doesn't require antivirus!" Personally I don't want Apple verifying or revoking anything. I bought the computer, it's mine. You don't get to tell me what I can run, period. Inform me, sure, give me links to go learn why you don't want me to run so…

> I guess a super obvious question is, why do they do this instead of having a robust antivirus ecosystem?

Enumerating “all possible badness” is basically impossible, which is why AV software really doesn’t work. Every ransomware attack you read about in the news bypassed up-to-date AV software.

Enumerating “known-good” entities is actually a tractable problem... this is what vendor-signing does. Even Google and Microsoft understand this and have had code-signing infrastructure in place for decades.

Re: Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

#349

Post by danShumway »

martimarkov wrote: post #346
danShumway wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security features should not be used for contract enforcement. My point stands, Apple introduced a security feature then used it for contract enforcement against a company that opposed them. There is no reason to believe that they wouldn't do the same thing here. Whether or not you believe that Epic was the villain in that story is irrelevant to the current conversation.

Oh, Epic broke their contract and therefore I think can be seen as bad for security. If they are willing to break their contract for money what is to stop them from harvesting my data for money? The security feature is a part of the apple ecosystem. I bought a Mac because of that not desire of it.

> Oh, Epic broke their contract and therefore I think can be seen as bad for security.

> If they are willing to break their contract for money what is to stop them from harvesting my data for money?

This argument was weak enough that a judge specifically rejected it after Apple failed to prove any kind of immediate threat was being presented from the Unreal Engine.

> what is to stop them from harvesting my data for money?

The fact that the contract dispute in question had nothing to do with data harvesting in the fist place.

> I bought a Mac because of that

That's fine. And if Apple wants to try and tie all of this to security, then honestly whatever. But when this signing feature came out, people made fun of critics for suggesting Apple would do the exact thing you're now saying they're justified in doing. Try to lump it under the banner of security, try to lump it under the barrier of whatever you want. When avalys says:

> I don’t see how you can so confidently reach that conclusion. It seems perfectly plausible that Apple wants a way to quickly quash malware, worms, etc.

they're expressing doubt that Apple would do any of the things that you're praising Apple for doing with app signing. And the fact remains, it's very plausible that they would use this as a tool to enforce contracts. You're in the comments, right now, saying that they should use this feature as a tool to enforce contracts.

So what exactly do you disagree with me on? It still seems pretty reasonable to believe that Apple will be willing to use app logging as a contract enforcement tool, and that when they do people will jump on HN to defend them, given that you are currently defending them for doing so right now.

The argument over whether preemptively blocking app updates based on a vague sense of 'distrust' falls into the category of security is a semantic argument, and I don't really care about digging into it. The point stands, people are worried that Apple will use this feature to target apps beyond normal malware, trojans, or worms, and they are right to be worried about that.

Re: Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look

#350

Post by catlifeonmars »

mkskm wrote: post #109
catlifeonmars wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could block still block it externally by running a dns sinkhole (a la PiHole) on the same network, provided that you can still configure the DNS resolver.

That assumes the hostname will stay the same and not get overloaded by other essential services.

Yep. That seems to be within the realm of possibility though, no?
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