My german isn't that good, but from what I understand and from the translation below, the source seems a bit conspiratorial. I completely agree with the concerns raised elsewhere in this thread, but I'm not sure I see the clear link to recent events in Vienna etc claimed here. Here[0] is an earlier document from 21 october which the article seems to take some screenshots from, so it seems that this has been coming ei…
Thanks—we've changed the URL from https://fm4.orf.at/stories/3008930/ . Submissions to HN need to be in English—we have great respect for other languages, including German, but HN is an English language site. Happily in this case, following the site guideline that calls for original sources solves this problem as well. (I've taken the title from the new URL, btw, which uses the rather strong preposition "against"—I s…
EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]
341–350 of 780 posts
Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]
#342should read
> There is no way of achieving the set goals
It's been said many times, but you can't have your own math. Broken encryption is broken for everyone, not just the good guys.
Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]
#343https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/19/combating-abuse-in-matrix... is our attempt at Matrix to spell out what a catastrophic idea it is to backdoor end-to-end encryption (and to provide an alternative proposal in the form of using decentralised reputation to mitigate abuse. We're kicking decentralised reputation work off in earnest tomorrow, so watch this space to see how it goes). I guess we'll be weighing in on the EU…
What about proposing encryption as an EU human right? Has that been attempted?
* Freedom of movement is clearly restricted for people on a jail sentence.
* We have secrecy of communication but also lawful interception.
Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]
#344Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]
#345I see this as follows: 1. Terrorism and trafficking of children will win the moral high ground. 2. App stores will be forced locale by locale to conform to these policies. 3. Most people will not notice or care. 4. This will be used by N-Eyes and totalitarian governments to quash dissent. 5. Meanwhile the tech crowd will create alternate app distribution mechanisms allowing those who care to communicate securely. 6.…
https://www.politico.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/SKM_C4582...
In my view there is a good chance that (2) will not be EU law for the foreseeable future, although this does require some opposition work. I guess one can see it as education of the politicians (the commissioners in this case).
Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]
#346Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is silly. Governments have all sorts of things like machine guns, tanks, and battleships that (rightfully) aren't allowed for the general public.
Sadly, no one actually has any battleships these days, not even the governments... :-(
Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]
#347This is madness. Oh, of course, it's much easier to put a wrench into some gears to show that you are actually working at "solving the terrorism problem" than shaving the yaks, but that machine is actually important for other things. We live in a dangerous world. We cannot control everything. I don't mind a slight risk of terrorist attack on myself or my family (caveat lector: I am young), if that means greater freed…
>We live in a dangerous world. No we don't, but that's what the Politicians try to implement in our brains.
It is pretty stupid to try to jump a car on your bicycle without a landing ramp. Or play catch with lit M80s. And those weren't our dumbest ideas.
When I was a kid every 8-year-old pushed a lawn mower around once a week. And rode in the back of a pickup truck. Today I don't let my kids ride in the back of pickup trucks, and I'm nervous about the lawn mower. Or rather, I'm nervous about trusting my kid not to be careless with the mower.
But when I see the metal detector at the door of my kid's school I wince. Some dangers and some fears need to be met head on. For some people, those include riding in the back of pickup trucks. For some it is the school's metal detector. If only we could make those choices for ourselves and our children without forcing our fears onto our neighbors.
Edit: clarity
Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
exactly; the terror ... stop being afraid and we avoid the collective need to sell our souls and those of our children for the protection of the state
Yeah - it is goddamn tiring can't the professional emotional manipulators that call themselves politicians play on any other emotion than fear to get elected?
For example, in the weeks leading up to the election, CNN ran a sidebar on the screen to continuously show current statistics on covid deaths, all day. The sidebar vanished on election day, and has not returned, even though covid death rates are worse than ever.
Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]
#349I see this as follows: 1. Terrorism and trafficking of children will win the moral high ground. 2. App stores will be forced locale by locale to conform to these policies. 3. Most people will not notice or care. 4. This will be used by N-Eyes and totalitarian governments to quash dissent. 5. Meanwhile the tech crowd will create alternate app distribution mechanisms allowing those who care to communicate securely. 6.…
Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]
#350So I have spent a long time thinking about, and spoken to a lot of prominent people about, encryption and
I have come to a seemingly contrarian type conclusion that perhaps flies in the face of what HN typically says, but I hope that, instead of knee-jerk downvoting it, you think about it and let’s have a discussion based on substance.
There is a difference between using crypto primitives for signatures and zk proofs to secure everyone’s TRUST in a resilient, decentralized system, and using encryption to hide content from others.
To be honest ... I no longer think that end-to-end encryption is the right solution to human rights problems. If citizens are reduced to sneaking around and denying their activities to survive, their governmental system is way past due for fixing. This is like the “good slave owners” delaying the abolition of slavery. You’re solving the wrong problem. I believe that crypto is needed to secure decentralized byzantine fault tolerant systems like Ethereum etc. to be TRUSTED, not to hide information. Signatures, not encryption, if you will. If anything, it is the government who doesn’t want encryption to be broken (eg of copyrighted DVD content etc.) and there is an inherent contradiction since anyone who consumes unencrypted content can reshare it. What we really need is to decentralize the personal data in many places, and use zero-knowledge proofs for attestation, but that is different than encrypting and hiding information.
Should we make bulk collection of data infeasible in huge amounts? Sure. But let’s see if there are any uses of encryption — as opposed to signing and securing data - that are truly indispensable to society and are the right and best solution to solve the problem.
Within organizations, auditing and accountability are very much desired. Banning users and so on. Even though I am a libertarian, there is no simple solution to “just always have a flat system” - hierarchies always form due to efficiencies of scale (eg to gang up on people and defend against that, etc.)
What we should instead focus on, imho, is programming incentives from the beginning to promote checks and balances among the most powerful entities in the system. Look at the US Constitution and how the system has endured. Look at Bitcoin miners, Ethereum miners and so on. That is what we need - to have benign rules for everyone and make sure it’s super hard to maintain a collusion for long to overturn these rules.
Otherwise you can geek out on encryption all you want while the AI-enhanced government will track all of your physical movements and speech with cameras, gait recognition, speech recognition on vibrating potato chip bags through windows, will figure out what you’re all planning through network analysis and precrime, and nail you with parallel construction and social credit score penalties, and if anyone tries to help you they’ll get nailed too. Think it’s far fetched? China and Palantir are already doing it. Social credit systems are actually more benign, jailing and physical coersion and brainwashing are worse. Encryption won’t save the Uyghurs from re-education camps, nor profiling of Black youth in USA, nor will it help foil the next terrorist attack or mass shooting, so it doesn’t help either side of the equation that exacerbates the other in endless escalation and reprisals. And if you really don’t want those things to happen, you need to focus on architecting the governmen’t technology to be more benign in its rules, rather than facilitating sneaking around and delaying the need for the real solutions!!
Don’t listen to me only. Listen to the venerable Randall Munroe: https://xkcd.com/538/