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Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

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Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#341

Post by aazaa »

gwright wrote: post #281
aazaa wrote: post #209

> Police stopped Elijah McClain on the street in suburban Denver last year after deeming the young Black man suspicious. He was thrown into a chokehold, threatened with a dog and stun gun, then subjected to another law enforcement tool before he died: a drug called ketamine. From the very beginning this story makes no sense. Suspicious is not a crime. An earlier story makes things seem even worse: > While McClain was…

> Wearing a ski mask in public during the summer, although odd, is not a crime, either. I don't know much at all about the McClain case, but your statement seems to have a flawed assumption that a crime is required before police can legitimately get involved. Policing doesn't only occur after a crime is committed. A big part of policing is about deterrence: being visible, talking with people in the community, investi…

From the story I linked:

> When officers Nathan Woodyard, Jason Rosenblatt and Randy Roedema stopped Elijah McClain on his way home, one telling him that he was "being suspicious," according to police body camera video. McClain responded, "I have a right to go where I am going."

> The officers immediately grabbed McClain, who repeatedly told them to let him go.

This has nothing to do with being visible, talking with the community, investigating suspicious activity, or double-checking that nothing is wrong.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#342

Post by dang »

ezoe wrote: post #289

Wow. Another reason I will never set my foot on US jurisdiction. It's just too dangerous. The law doesn't exist at all.

Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar, regardless of which country you have an issue with.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24252530.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#343

Post by john_moscow »

wonderwonder wrote: post #315
john_moscow wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the day-to-day job of these armed people is to deal with other violent, and often armed people, before they go out on the general public. Besides, there are quite a few cities that have considerably limited the police power by now. Minneapolis, New York, Chicago, Seattle, Portland for example. The safety of regular law-abiding people has considerably dropped. Murders are up, gun sales are up, almost every type…

I am sure you are satisfied, your police force kills civilians at a rate 1/3 that of the US. What techniques work there that we are ignoring? Does your police force use de-escalation? Majority of ours does not. Perhaps the problems that the police are meant to solve are in part caused by the police? If I was always treated as a suspect after a while I may start to become resentful. If I was a minority representing 13…

Let me give you some anecdotes.

I have been ticketed for speeding on both sides of the border. RCMP makes is extremely professional. The whole conversation almost sounds like getting a bill from a roofer guy, explaining how to pay it and why you should check your roof more often. U.S. cops have a lot more of the "Ha-ha, now you're mine, bastard" attitude. I was extremely polite and complying both times.

Police often camps out in public events, like car shows, building trust with people. Silly things like giving stickers to kids and letting them climb on police ATVs for pictures, or officers showing off the tech in their cars to car enthusiasts.

When it comes to controversial topics, optics is everything. When a couple of student protestors blocked a major train line protesting against an oil pipeline, and commuters got really pissed off, since they couldn't get to their workplaces, the officer arresting them looked like a 60+ year old grandma with the "stop fooling around, kids" look. Nobody got hurt and the media got zero chance to blow it to any kind of a scandal.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#344

Post by simlevesque »

strombofulous wrote: post #322
ezoe wrote: post #289

Wow. Another reason I will never set my foot on US jurisdiction. It's just too dangerous. The law doesn't exist at all.

This is confusing to me because it seems like you're responding to the golden example of how this problem can be dealt with - the nurse refused, the corrupt officer was fired, and the relevant law was changed when it was brought to light. What could change in this story to make you more comfortable?

We are talking about the one time this had a good outcome. I'd say that this has most likely happened before, without all these consequences for the cop.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#347

Post by 8note »

john_moscow wrote: post #287
wonderwonder wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't think it is entirely fair to put 100% of the blame on the police. A much healthier solution would be to try de-escalating general tensions between the police and the population." Right, its not the fault of the armed people with godlike power to kill, arrest and detain to their hearts content based on nothing but a feeling or bias. Its the fault of the people being harassed and killed for not properly genufl…

Well, the day-to-day job of these armed people is to deal with other violent, and often armed people, before they go out on the general public. Besides, there are quite a few cities that have considerably limited the police power by now. Minneapolis, New York, Chicago, Seattle, Portland for example. The safety of regular law-abiding people has considerably dropped. Murders are up, gun sales are up, almost every type…

The Canadian approach to police violence is the starlight tour -- rather than bringing someone to jail, drop them off in the middle of nowhere to freeze overnight.

Some parts of the US could take this approach, but there's a lot of places in the US that are either too nice out or there's too many fast food restaurants/Starbucks to take shelter in

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#348

Post by throwanem »

salawat wrote: post #332
throwanem wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I don't mind; it was something like 15 years ago anyway, and obviously didn't amount to anything in the first place. Baltimore PD officers wear black uniforms. One night one of them was standing in the middle of the street I was driving down, and there weren't enough streetlights in that section. I was doing something like 40 in a 30, and the first thing I knew that anything was wrong was when I heard a loud th…

>So I pulled over and got out, because of course I did; I saw no personal benefit in complicating my upcoming arrest with a chase. >not been easily "read" as an "upstanding citizen" type, I'd have been in a hell of a lot of trouble. This may have had more to do with with him waving you off than anything else. The type of people police are purportedly there to handle are not those who would do what you did. If this is…

Oh? And suppose he'd assumed when I got out of the car that I was going for a gun? They tell you these days that you do not ever get out of the car during a traffic stop unless instructed, and while this wasn't precisely a traffic stop, it wasn't all that far off - and I was far too frightened to be thinking about being careful with my hands. Or even to be thinking, really; I knew I was about to go to jail, and all I could fit in my mind beyond that was, I had better not try to make things even worse.

That officer made the judgment he did in a matter of seconds; as I noted in another comment here, I didn't have time to speak, or to take so much as a step toward the officer, before he waved me off - which was just as well in retrospect; God alone knows what I'd have said. But if any one aspect of the gestalt I presented had in any way varied from "harmless", he might well have drawn on me, and if he hadn't done that then he'd for damn sure have come over to see whether I was drunk or high or whatever the hell. And then he would have found my dope, and I would have gone to jail that night.

None of that would have happened because I was actually dangerous! He wasn't wrong to read me the way he did. But I was still extremely lucky that he did read me right. I could very easily have been less fortunate. And given everything I've seen in twenty years living in this town, I am very sure that the vast bulk of my good fortune that night lay in the accident of my having light skin.

Freddie Gray could talk about that, I think, if he were still alive to talk about anything. The federal consent decree that followed his death did not come about in a vacuum. And it is not in a vacuum that BPD officers interact with other citizens - both like and unlike myself - of this city.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#349

Post by M2Ys4U »

ashtonkem wrote: post #268
tehwebguy wrote: post #158

Police should never be permitted to direct medical professionals to do anything to a person in their custody unless it is to save their life. Medical professionals should be hyper-trained on how to tell police “hell no” and to report their requests to an independent agency for investigation. There are other types of scenarios where out of control cops bully doctors and nurses into doing illegal things, two that I hav…

The cops involved went back to where they killed Elijah McCain and posed for a group photo, reportedly re-enacting his death. This is the behavior I’d expect from a serial killer. Edit: they then distributed or showed this photo to the rest of the precinct. We know because a whistleblower notified the media. To my eye, this means that they expected the rest of the precinct to approve of this behavior, which is extrem…

>This is the behavior I’d expect from a serial killer.

Yes, they're police in the United States...

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#350

Post by wonderwonder »

john_moscow wrote: post #343
wonderwonder wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sure you are satisfied, your police force kills civilians at a rate 1/3 that of the US. What techniques work there that we are ignoring? Does your police force use de-escalation? Majority of ours does not. Perhaps the problems that the police are meant to solve are in part caused by the police? If I was always treated as a suspect after a while I may start to become resentful. If I was a minority representing 13…

Let me give you some anecdotes. I have been ticketed for speeding on both sides of the border. RCMP makes is extremely professional. The whole conversation almost sounds like getting a bill from a roofer guy, explaining how to pay it and why you should check your roof more often. U.S. cops have a lot more of the "Ha-ha, now you're mine, bastard" attitude. I was extremely polite and complying both times. Police often…

"U.S. cops have a lot more of the "Ha-ha, now you're mine, bastard" attitude." I am not sure how this helps your argument. You are saying that right off the bat the cops were aggressive for no reason and you were polite. How is that situation any ones fault except the cops?
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