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Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

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Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#341
post #148
post #2

This clearly and unambiguously crosses the line into abuse of market power. Apple's actions before? Maybe? Sort of? Apple needed that 30 percent cut to monitor for fraud and quality or something, going above-and-beyond other payment processors. This? This has absolutely no basis in anything. It's simple retaliation designed to kneecap Epic from Apple's dominant control of a market. Apple can refuse to let Epic releas…

The thing is, this starts the taxi meter running; every dollar that Epic would have expected to make will get added to their demand for damages.

Source? They specifically state that they're not suing for damages and I doubt they have changed their case in the last few days...

> Apple’s conduct has caused and continues to cause Epic financial harm, but as noted above, Epic is not bringing this case to recover these damages; Epic is not seeking any monetary damages.

https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/apple-complaint-734589783.pdf

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#342
post #267
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The App Store's exclusivity is precisely the same as that of nearly every video game console. I don't understand why you keep bringing up video game consoles in this discussion. 1. You seem to believe people actually agree with the way console stores work. This is not the case. 2. The fact that the situation is also terrible somewhere else doesn't absolve Apple of anything. That's not how justice works.

If you are consistent in your claims and believe that all computing devices, including smartphones, game consoles, e-book readers, GPS watches, car entertainment centers, etc. should be required to provide a way for owners to run unsigned code, then my accusations of inconsistency do not apply to you. In fact, I see much much less vitriol aimed towards game console store policy than iOS App Store policy. That's why I…

You are intentionally muddying the water by bringing code signing (a technicality) and devices for which software distribution was never part of the economics. Nevertheless, yes, I think making ebook readers tied to a single store illegal would be a net positive from consumers. It would let stores compete on their merits as stores and readers as readers. More competition is always good.

Pointedly, my argument is simple: the modern concept of plateform, as has been pushed by management consulting firms for the past two decades and successfully been exploited by hightech companies, is a blatant attack against anti competition laws and I believe the whole thing only started because the US government decided it would only meekly enforce them. Rebranding barriers to entry moats shouldn't make artificially building them more acceptable.

As you rightfully pointed, plateforms seem to be popping everywhere nowadays from game consoles to cars. I don't find that surprising: reducing competition is like crack cocaine to companies. It both means less need to innovate and differentiate and a larger share of customers surplus (theorically all customer surplus but it might be too blatant then). Customers are the ones losing there.

As the whole thing strongly goes against one of the core tenant of modern capitalism, it seems obvious to me it is going to end with more regulations as soon as the political zeitgeist regarding economy will lean less towards extrem laissez-faire. Unless of course, we decide to go full-bore towards nineteenth century style capitalism...

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#343
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that "it was in the contract that Epic agreed to" is ridiculous. It wasn't a contract that Epic could've disagreed to. This is the same for end users, but we don't have the power to start a lawsuit against Apple.

The legal term you are looking for is "contract of adhesion": https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/adhesion_contract_%28contrac... However, a lot of the text around those contracts you'll find centers around a powerful entity like Apple adhering the contract to a nearly-powerless entity, like an individual consumer. I'm not up enough on the details of what case law has been created to know what happen to a contract of adh…

I hope Epic doesn’t have a strategy that hinges on a PR win forcing apple to back down, because (A) as this thread is showing there are still a lot of people on apple’s side and (B) apple is usually quite vengeful in these things and will not back down here until compelled by court or law.

Just look at what happened to nvidia, for far minor offenses. They were blacklisted from apple’s platforms very thoroughly, and people still mostly side with apple on that one.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#344
post #267
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The App Store's exclusivity is precisely the same as that of nearly every video game console. I don't understand why you keep bringing up video game consoles in this discussion. 1. You seem to believe people actually agree with the way console stores work. This is not the case. 2. The fact that the situation is also terrible somewhere else doesn't absolve Apple of anything. That's not how justice works.

If you are consistent in your claims and believe that all computing devices, including smartphones, game consoles, e-book readers, GPS watches, car entertainment centers, etc. should be required to provide a way for owners to run unsigned code, then my accusations of inconsistency do not apply to you. In fact, I see much much less vitriol aimed towards game console store policy than iOS App Store policy. That's why I…

They're clearly picking their battles. If they are able to win this case against Apple, they can use it as precedent to (hopefully) pressure consoles to open up too.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#346
post #86
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic, btw, has the exact same kind of agreement with Sony, Microsoft, and Google, for access to their gaming platforms. All three of those companies are extracting the same 30% fee that Apple is. You don't have to agree to Epic's terms to access the platforms from Sony, MS and Google. You do, however, have to agree to Apple's terms to access their Platform.

Nitpicking, and I'm not even sure that's correct. Regardless, it's not relevant. What Epic is griping about here is the 30% fee, but they're not acting or speaking in good faith about that. They're pretending that fee is somehow onerous, but they pay that exact same fee to every other platform, too.

They can believe that many actors are injust but can be simply choosing their battles. And phones > consoles in terms of impact. They're also less arbitrary about which purchases take a 30% cut or not compared to phones.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A one-sided agreement containing a retaliation clause, followed by exercising that clause, is retaliation. Say you're desperate and need water in a crisis, and I offer you some, but only if you sign an agreement which gives you water, but says I can punch you in the face whenever you say something I don't like. Say you say something I don't like, and I punch you in the face. Did I just retaliate? Or did the contract…

Apple said "Here are the terms, you can use our services if you agree to them, and if you break them we'll close your account." Epic said "Okay, we agree.", then broke the terms they agreed to, so Apple is closing their account. This seems like pretty straightforward break of the terms of use to me. The reasonable way Epic could have proceeded is to have submitted an update with the "third party store" stuff added, g…

What are the damages in your hypothetical?

Because Epic knows the damages in this real situation and everyone agrees what they are.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#348
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a misleading question, because on other platforms you can choose to avoid the store. That's definitely not true. You cannot run unsigned code on most video game consoles. And for PC game marketplaces, those platforms still have market power. Surely there's a big difference between being banned from Steam and being banned from the Discord Store.

Video game consoles are specialized hardware. They do one thing and they do it well. It's kind of understandable that these companies want to review anything released for those. They want to ensure that games are of high quality so as to not hurt the reputation of the platform itself. They want games to help sell consoles. And that's how video game consoles always worked. iPhones, on the other hand, are not specializ…

By this definition, surely as long as Apple didn't market it free from the App Store, it doesn't qualify as a general purpose device?

If I could install a web browser and libreoffice on an xbox, would that meet your definition of a general purpose device? And isn't that an artificial, monopolising restriction that I can't?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#349
post #246
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://twitter.com/slasher/status/1295434558112960519?s=21 This may have consequences for Unreal Engine too. Without a dev account, how can they maintain it?

Are there Apple Arcade games that use the Unreal Engine? Is Apple shooting itself in the leg to punish Epic?

Many of the biggest Apple games use Unreal Engine, including many that Apple features in the Arcade.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#350

This just seems like a dumb move on Apple's part. It's self-sabotaging. It hurts their legal case, it hurts their public image, and it hurts their platform, as Unreal Engine is used in both iOS and macOS games. Not that many people were getting Apple platforms for games before, but they've just shoved one of the most popular engines off the platform. If the judge grants Epic a TRO, Apple is going to be in deep crud.…

Agree 100%.

I also think Apple should stop collecting commission fees from all App Store sales starting today. They have billions in the bank. What are those billions for if not to invest back into the company and its developers. Foregoing all commission fees is an easy way to do that and would make Apple a hero and help developers. I’m also willing to be there would be a resurgence in the App Store and bring in more sales and more developers.

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