Live data from Hacker News

Video Games Are the Future of Education

nabeelqu.co

341–350 of 392 posts

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#341
After thinking about this for a while, there’s a pattern to games that might be useful to think about: Games generally follow a pattern of: - presenting a pattern to look for. - presenting tools to solve that sort of pattern. Then task you with implementing and reiterating that sort of solution.

This is close to how we teach STEM, but games tend to start breaking their own patterns (or the contextual clues for the patterns) in a smoother way. (E.g. portal where you’re gradually asked to think more and more (laterally) “with portals”)

So if we take a dichotomal view on education vs learning, we can say that games will encourage you to learn more effectively (in the context of the game, typically)

I suspect this can be helped with the concept of gameplay loops/cycles.

What games are good at is aiding the reinforcement cycle at the core of learning a skill.

(This cycle is also in any technical skill.)

Games are fun as long as they avoid this repetition and reiteration cycle feeling like a grind. Which is where Educational(tm) material quickly becomes stuck.

Grind is, in a sense, a qualifier of your experience. How the repetition feels to you. If you’re “grinding” with a purpose, and it’s paced so your progress feels steady towards a self-elected goal, then it does not feel like grinding.

If it’s dry-repetitions, then you feel the grind. And that’s the trap of educational (I think)

(The ideas here are still mostly half-cooked, but hopefully it can add to the discussion)

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#342
post #326

Hot takes from people with no experience in the field are only interesting to other people who have no experience in the field. It seems developers are particularly prone to this hubris. I don't find many doctors writing about the future of programming languages, or teachers writing blogs about the future of medicine. Yet you can find thousands of these hot takes from developers about the future of education. Or pick…

> Yet you can find thousands of these hot takes from developers about the future of education. Or pick your subject. I think you've missed one big point of the article. Videogames will become the reality of education when they become easy to make , so that it doesn't require an army of programmers to implement.

I didn't miss that point. I explained why a video game or any kind of simulation is never going to be better for many subjects. No matter how easy video games become to create, they are often not the best teaching tool at hand.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#343
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But this kind of knowledge acquisition only ever teaches the lowest hanging fruits, it's no substitute for drilling in the basics. Even lifetimes spent passing KSP won't bring you to a point were you could design your own rocket. Yes. Though it can probably teach you enough that you have enough scaffolding already in your brain that you can get through a textbook without getting lost?

I think the real value of KSP is orthogonal to textbooks. Like it says in that one xkcd strip, it gives you an intuitive understanding of orbital mechanics by letting you interact directly (and with a goal) with orbital trajectories. I think you'd have a hard time getting the same visual intuition about how the ellipse stretches and rotates depending on whether you burn retrograde or radially out from a textbook. The…

Again, the scaffolding effect. Greatly illustrated by how the civ games teach about history: they teach absolutely nothing, all their models are fantastically wrong and a core element is the counterfactual nature of how a game plays out (culminating in Gandhi's bomb threats). But they give mental scaffolding that is valuable in those topics where you'd otherwise start from an empty slate. When for example you know nothing about west African history and read a text about it for the first time, just having that image of the Mansa Musa avatar in your mind will give you a retention advantage over someone who doesn't have it. It works much like a condensation seed then, a mental bookmark to which new information can be attached before getting lost as essentially noise.

But I wonder if that might also come as a disadvantage in the classroom, where the remaining facts and methods grind has to be enforced: if, for some reason, you felt the need to make pupils knowledgeable in the sequence of popes, that incredibly boring class would naturally be spiced up with anecdotes of dual antipopes, the cadaver synod and so on. Would that last hope of making that class somewhat bearable be lost on someone who already knew those rare fun parts in between all the numbers, e.g. because of playing CK2?

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#344
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lesson here reminds me of one of my favorite Malcolm Gladwell essays about McDonald's failure to market healthy fast food back in the 90's: The McLean was a flop, and four years later it was off the market. What happened? Part of the problem appears to have been that McDonald's rushed the burger to market before many of the production kinks had been worked out. More important, though, was the psychological handic…

Indeed, wonder how the McLean would land now almost 30 years later? If they sold it as a healthy choice today, would it face a similar failure? Speaking of choice and marketing, wonder why McDonald’s in the US still lacks a veggie burger. Is it based on a business decision?

It absolutely must be, because they have even vegan options here and there. Sweden, for instance, has had vegan burgers for several years (first McBean and now McVegan). I know other countries have something similar.

It seems to me that US McDonald's must be scared of diluting their brand by also going after the veggie crowd. Perhaps due to McLean failing or that they just bide their time until they can make a whole new set of restaurants under a different brand name like McDonald's Green or something?

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FWIW the specific mistake you're making is thinking about this in a way that overemphasizes the context of the school system. I am? I have spent literally thousands of hours volunteering for a free online education platform that operates entirely independently from school systems. Although some schools do use it. Some of my family was home schooled. Along with that I have actual teaching experience outside the publ…

I picked up a real guitar for years, mastered quite a few techniques but never learned to see the music on the fretboard. I suspect a good game would have got me over that hump quite easily. The last time I rode a horse it bucked me off; maybe a game would not help me so much there. So yes, for _some_ things there is a contradiction but I don't think that is a useful point. The arguments are not diluted by "Video gam…

There is a game to memorize the fretboard. As it turned out, memorizing the fretboard, while somewhat useful, was not what helped me see music on the fretboard. My guitar teacher is responsible for that insight by insisting I focus on the relationship between notes, and over many songs. Where C is on the guitar neck is nowhere near as important as the fact that the C I am playing is a minor third to the root note I will end the phrase on. His insistence was mysterious to me until it finally clicked. This is why a video game will never replace a teacher who understands the end place of wisdom they are trying to bring you to.

It's a useful point to consider just how little or how much video games can cover. If video games can only ever be the most effective route to learn 10% of what we need to learn, then that's less interesting to spend time and energy on compared to if the number is 50% or 80%.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#346
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Geology is a big part of Dwarf Fortress. They take their different stone types very serious. About 'German Grammar': check out Heaven's Vault https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Vault But honestly, humans don't learn languages by understand their grammars with the logic part of their brain. Games would be ideal to produce comprehensible input, and test players on their comprehension via actions, instead of makin…

> But honestly, humans don't learn languages by understand their grammars with the logic part of their brain. As a native German speaker, I disagree. For me, the German grammar (in particular the declination system) is what I would consider the type system of the German language. So yes, I do think a lot about German sentences in terms of types/grammar that are/is involved. EDIT: When I was a pupil at school, the onl…

When you're a native speaker at school you already speak the language, you just learn the rules to better understand some corner cases and to be able to pursue some careers that would otherwise be impossible for you.

But you first learn a language intuitively at home, by using it a lot and developing intuition for what sounds right and what doesn't.

I'm a native Polish speaker (which has a "typesystem" much more complicated than the German one nevermind the English one). I've learnt German for 4 years in secondary school. I remember the system to be pretty intuitive and simple (mostly you change the articles not the words, there's just 4 cases, no verb aspects, just 1 kind of plural, just 3 genders, etc.).

So it was definitely easy to remember the rules and I did at one point (not anymore ;) ). But still to speak German you can't pause every 3 seconds to do a table lookup for the correct conjugation and rules, that would be far too slow. You have to use the language and have that "ouch" feeling when you use the wrong case so eventually you know intuitively which word to use.

A game to teach a language should just be a game using that language and giving immediate feedback.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#347

Hot takes from people with no experience in the field are only interesting to other people who have no experience in the field. It seems developers are particularly prone to this hubris. I don't find many doctors writing about the future of programming languages, or teachers writing blogs about the future of medicine. Yet you can find thousands of these hot takes from developers about the future of education. Or pick…

You might not understand the nature of video games if you compare it with an extremely narrow topic like cryptography. Video games are closer to media than to a tool that enables a certain outcome. The definition of a game according to Total Biscuit was basically "A game must have an explicit or implied failure state". The potential space for things that can be considered a game is incredibly vast but it is still a p…

That's a fun and useful definition, so thanks for that.

I think it's worth clarifying that I did not compare video games to cryptography. I compared programmers brainstorming about education to junior programmers brainstorming about cryptography.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#348

I built www.supermathworld.com and it was incredibly difficult to sell. It was too wild for institutions to back it, and word-of-mouth didn't spread from individual users (as other commenters here have noted for other products)

Just played it and it was quite fun in the begining. Skipped ahead to fractions via blue path, an issue which came up was it was easy to travel into dead paths endlessly navigating the sea or running around. Went back to beginning of level and turning right instead of left cleared that issue. Another issue was that when moving back after an unproductive path, it is hard to see what was behind the character, you cant see a wall until you hit it. Moving the camera back helps.

But the game itself seemed very interesting.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#349
So I've got 4 four kids and was the tech director for a school district that was 1:1. We started iPads about 10 years ago but have now transitioned to Chromebooks. In my observations educational games work well with under 12. After about 12 years old social pressure and lack of complexity keep them from enjoying games that are "educational". Over 12 apps suck as Minecraft, Tynker, Scratch become more inline with an older kids interest. But if you DO make educational apps please keep it up. For example Stack the States / Stack the Countries has been a favorite in with all my kids.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#350
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people will just home school their kids. Wrong and by a huge factor which is why I asked for sources. This source [1] says 3% of children in the US are home schooled. This source [2] says about 3.5%. Even you could give a source that triples those number to 10%, you are are still completely wrong about "most". > many people on this site went through the US educational system and would cite it as not preparing…

The “most” I was referring to wasn’t the most of all parents, but of people who you say should just go out and start a new school system. It seems somewhat self evident that the people who are homeschooling their kids have some % that do so because they see the school system as a failure. The point is if you’ve flipped the bozo bit on public schools, the next fix is go to a private one, and the next is to homeschool,…

> It seems somewhat self evident that the people who are homeschooling their kids have some % that do so because they see the school system as a failure

Sure, I'll go with that. So we've got some percentage of 3% who see the school system as a failure. That's a tiny percentage. This is why data is important. I'll even agree that the real percentage of parents or graduates who think the school system is a failure is much higher. But how much higher?

> You’re really digging in here, and seem to be taking personally

Not at all. I'm interested in learning and I don't trust anecdote. I trust data. So I was hoping you have data but it seems like you won't ever have data because you're convinced that anecdote is enough. For some of us, it's not enough. We like data because we've seen anecdote paint a false reality far too many times.

> something which seems plainly obvious to many successful people: school failed to prepare them for their professional lives,

I'll make the opposite claim: it's not obvious to most successful people. It's also not obvious to the companies hiring people. Yes new employees need some training. But they do not need years of retraining to compensate for an "abject failure" of a school system that trained them for twelve years. Most employees start adding value pretty quickly. I've run my own companies. I was happy with how quickly employees started adding value.

So this is another example of why anecdote fails to help us understand a situation. My anecdote is different from your anecdote is different from someone else's anecdote.

> in many cases school was a physiologically damaging, stifling experience.

School or being around other kids? Kids are brutal. Work is also too often a physiologically damaging, stifling experience. But usually not as brutal as children can be to each other. What might prepare you for success in that kind of work environment?

> This isn’t an argument based upon data, it’s an argument based upon a constellation of anecdotal data.

Perhaps there is a constellation out there, but I don't see it and you're not willing to show it other than saying "trust me, it's obvious a lot of people feel this way".

What 's obvious to me is that Americans have one of highest standards of living in the world and the largest and most important economy in the world, along with a very high median wage. So what's hard to believe is that this has been the case for so long when 90% of the children who will go on to contribute to that economy as adults were educated in a system that is an "abject failure" when it comes to preparing them for their professional lives. That the twelve years of public education they went through needs to be thrown out, and companies have to start from the beginning in teaching all of the basic skills the schools failed to teach them.

I would also extend this to all developed countries. They all offer a high standard of living, even to lower middle class people. Most often healthcare is considered a human right. How does all this progress manage to happen when the first twelve years of education are an "abject failure"?

With all of that said, I don't want to silence or dismiss you or anyone who had a horrible time at school. For sure I had some less than ideal experiences myself. There is a lot that can be improved. But if we are going to improve, it has to start with moving from anecdote to data. We need to understand causation and what can be fixed and what is outside the responsibility of the school system and should be the responsibility of parents and society at large.

We are not going to get there thanks to articles that promise video games are a silver bullet. If many developers truly do see education as an "abject failure", then they are going to have to do what I have done: teach, write educational software, and in short get deeply involved in the industry you are trying to improve. By which point you will have a far more nuanced understanding of what does and does not work and you'll firmly be out of "it's all an abject failure" territory.

Post reply on HN