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Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

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Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#341

Post by gnicholas »

gamblor956 wrote: post #30

Note to the people asking why this matters: Legally, if you take a position in federal court on X (i.e., that it's okay to ban external transactions by apps using your app store), and you are found to be doing not-X in an analogous situation (i.e., setting up external transactions to avoid fees in your competitors' app store), the court can rule against you in the original case...and then sanction you and your lawyer…

This does not fit with my understanding of estoppel (I am a lawyer).

There are specific rules that apply to the different types of estoppel, and they would not be met where Apple is dealing with app developers pursuant to the App Store dev agreement in one case and dealing with Google under the Google Play TOS in the other case.

It might be relevant if Apple claimed that Google is acting as a monopolist by engaging in XYZ behavior, but Apple’s lawyers are smart enough not to make such an argument.

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#343

Post by chj »

kyriee wrote: post #209
archildress wrote: post #35

Given the strong emotions around the topic, I've been a bit afraid to ask this question - is what Apple does really that different than traditional retail? In FMCG there are difficult hurdles to jump over to get on the store shelves. The stores don't have an obligation to put anyone's product on the shelf. They can also module what the cut of the revenue is. I'm not sure I have an opinion on what Apple is doing, but…

There are multiple things retail does. Discovery and sales is one of it, but no one does what Apple wants to do with IAP. Imagine that you buy a DVD player at Best Buy. That's cool. Best Buy decides the markup, where it puts it, how much it puts in promoting it, etc. That's also cool. You are OK with giving the with 30 % of your DVD player sales. After all, shelf space, promotion, etc. isn't free. Now, imagine Best B…

Best analogy ever known.

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#344

Post by chj »

zaroth wrote: post #236

This looks like the free market at work to me. Google policy explicitly permits apps like Apple Music to charge for subscriptions outside the App Store and for them to not allow taking subscription payment through the App Store. Apple has a similar policy for “Reader” apps on their own App Store for apps which are used to access content that you subscribe to, which Apple reasons that “Hey” does not qualify for. That’…

Are people starting to buy in the "Reader" concept now? It's laughable. Next, you will need to define what kinds of "Write" are acceptable in "Reader" apps. Is payment a certain form of "Write" or not?

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#345

Post by cortesoft »

seccess wrote: post #293
cortesoft wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has Apple sued Google for this, though? I haven’t heard of any lawsuits over this between the companies.

I think in this case, the hypothetical lawsuits would be between companies that make iOS apps and Apple. The companies that make iOS apps want to have their own payment system where Apple doesn't take a cut.

Right, but Apple could just say Google has different policies... they never argued that google legally had to allow them to accept outside payments. They would just say "Google could have prevented us by policy legally, but didn't want to."

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#346

Post by jimkleiber »

basch wrote: post #233
oillio wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> plus a 30% cut for doing nothing It's not nothing. Maybe not worth 30% but it is worth something. They run the store, buy the servers and pay for the bandwidth. Pay the engineers to develop and manage the infrastructure. Run the app certification process. Maintain the security of the platform. etc. If they can't charge their 30% cut, they will need a different business plan. Possibly charging app developers directl…

There should be a difference between a 30% cut of an app (of which apple can say their toolkits and os development are part of the product offering) and a 30% cut of a subscription, especially a multiplatform subscription. if you could buy netflix with applepay, but then 90% of your netflix usage is not on apple devices, apple collects on that entire subscription. Subscriptions should be priced more like a credit car…

I appreciate this comment, especially the end, because what I have sorely missed in most of the discussion on here and on Twitter are suggestions on what to do instead. If Apple is using monopoly power to bully iOS developers, what should Apple do? Charge subscriptions at 0%? Flat fee? Is 15% good? If they use Netflix on non-Apple hardware, should it be a revenue share?

I'm not saying Apple isn't breaking the law, I just really wish there were more suggestions on solutions on what they should do instead. So for that, I appreciate you helping me to see it in a more nuanced way.

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#347

Post by dmix »

cwhiz wrote: post #287
filoleg wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple is a minority player in every single market in the world, including the US. While I heavily agree with the rest of your reply whole-heartedly, this specific part isn't entirely correct. You are correct that Apple (when it comes to smartphones) is a minority player worldwide, but it isn't the case in the US, where it sits at a comfortable 58% smartphone market share [0], thus making it a majority player. 0. htt…

That link does not load for me and it contradicts Statista[0] so I am not sure exactly what to believe. https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held...

I believe the OP is using "market share" as porportion of revenue" of the marketplace and not actual number of users.

I'm highly skeptical that iOS is greater than 50% of the US market based on the endless web analytics I've looked at through my career (and that >50% goes back a number of years in their stats).

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#348

Post by empath75 »

actuator wrote: post #232

I really don't understand why people are defending Apple on this. It seems shameful of a $1.5 trillion company to do this to developers. Even more so when they themselves don't abide by their philosophy. They are extracting out a competitive advantage from this on other services like Spotify or Netflix( even without this they have a big one at app discovery and pre installs on iOS). Kudos to Google for allowing the d…

I’m okay with Apple forcing apps to support in app purchases or Apple Pay or whatever — the fee is the really gross part. If it were nominal it would be more reasonable.

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#349

Post by floatingatoll »

jfk13 wrote: post #302
ses1984 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Google ban bypassing their stores on Android?

Their policy explicitly permits it for this category of sales.

A judge can still indicate this behavior as proof of hypocrisy and reject Apple’s argument, even if it’s not prohibited by the other app store

Re: Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut

#350

Post by dpkonofa »

gamblor956 wrote: post #70
snowwrestler wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously if Apple owns one platform, and Google owns the other platform, it is not actually the same situation. The law does not require that Google and Apple run their online stores the same way, or that Apple interact with Google's store the same way they choose to run their own store. In fact it's arguable that a free marketplace encourages and depends on different companies taking different approaches to meet cu…

Analogous != same. It means its very similar factually. The law does not require that Google and Apple run their online stores the same way, or that Apple interact with Google's store the same way they choose to run their own store. That's correct. But the law does require them to run the stores in a way that does not violate antitrust laws. Apple is violating antitrust laws by forcing companies to use Apple Pay as a…

>Apple is violating antitrust laws by forcing companies to use Apple Pay as a condition of using the App Store

No, it's not. They do not require the use of Apple Pay. It's baked into the infrastructure of the product. No one is forced to use it.

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