Live data from Hacker News

Why Is This Website Port Scanning Me?

nullsweep.com

341–350 of 448 posts

Re: Why Is This Website Port Scanning Me?

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Websockets are nice for some things. I hack on Mastodon and it uses WSS for streams and they're very helpful. But WebBluetooth, ASM, etc are all fairly insane. WebRTC feels like a massive security issue (I've seen a demo of someone using WebRTC to find computers on an internal network at a security conference years ago. Even if that hole is fixed, it's still a hacky solution to video streaming behind NAT). I agree; m…

Why is ASM insane? Are you talking about WASM? That’s got the same security model as JavaScript.

A stronger one, actually, since it can't access a bunch of stuff.

Re: Why Is This Website Port Scanning Me?

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is ASM insane? Are you talking about WASM? That’s got the same security model as JavaScript.

WASM is great peace of tech but I can't help to think it would be abused a lot in the future. For example, right now we can use ad blocker to block ads and analytics by blocking its js from loading. Imagine when wasm gains mainstream popularity and ad companies begin to ship their ads and analytics product as a libaries to be linked at compile time. How do we block something like that? Sure the adblocker can hide the…

Turing strikes again…

Re: Why Is This Website Port Scanning Me?

#343
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add more about why current browsers don't do this: One is clearly that you need to communicate the requesting IP deep enough into the network stack to the point where you get the DNS response (if there is one), which means there's a fair bit of work to ensure this is done everywhere; Another is it's known to break corporate websites ( https://internal.bigcorp.com/ on a public IP expecting to be able to access priv…

Outside of DNS, the other reasons are about local networks, not 127.0/8. There's no good reason to permit port-scanning 127.0/8.

Still need to know where the top-level page is loaded from, though: you do want to allow requests from 127/8 to "localhost".

Re: Why Is This Website Port Scanning Me?

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are legitimate reasons for port scanning, but I'm not sure most websites out there are using it for noble purposes. I guess browsers could allow it based on explicit permission from the user, just like it's already done for microphone and camera.

I'm curious, what would be a good reason to do this? I'm not creative enough to think of anything this enables a site to do that isn't malicious. If I'm running a service on localhost, and that service needs to communicate with the site I'm browsing, surely I could just direct that service to communicate with the site itself. For instance, if I'm running a local chat application and need it to communicate with the we…

I'm not defending this use case, but one example I can think of is that Spotify runs a local server so that websites you access can control it, e.g. if you are on Billboard looking at top music charts, clicking on a song could start the song in Spotify, and even embed a player in the web browser, without you needing to be signed into Spotify in your browser.

Here's an interesting tangential article about how they get around obstacles with SSL certs for localhost: https://letsencrypt.org/docs/certificates-for-localhost/

Re: Why Is This Website Port Scanning Me?

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WASM is great peace of tech but I can't help to think it would be abused a lot in the future. For example, right now we can use ad blocker to block ads and analytics by blocking its js from loading. Imagine when wasm gains mainstream popularity and ad companies begin to ship their ads and analytics product as a libaries to be linked at compile time. How do we block something like that? Sure the adblocker can hide the…

These kind of complaints are based on a misunderstanding of how JS works or how the browser works. You can do the same exact thing in JS right now. In fact, if anything, JavaScript makes this way easier than WASM. With JS, you can just use something like Rollup or Webpack to put your analytics code in the same code.

Yeah but using webpack is not how majority of websites deployed, so it's probably not worth the effort for ads companies to support it. They will consider this when webpack/wasm become mainstream enough (approaching 50% web), which may or may not happen. Probably won't happened but the thought always linger in my mind.

Re: Why Is This Website Port Scanning Me?

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but more likely it depends on intent and context. So shodan.io is okay because it’s not explicitly malicious, and they have clear paths to contact them if you suspect abuse. Whereas, if you’re suspected of hacking a website, the fact that you port scanned it a week prior to password spraying it might serve as evidence against you. That is, it seems unlikely anyone would be prosecuted for port scanning alone, b…

What's Shodan.io's legitimate use? Sounds like the "torrents can be used for legitimate content" type argument where in reality you a rounding error the use is not lawful??

Shodan is used by most of the Fortune 100 companies for a variety of use cases. Here are the most common ones:

1. External network monitoring: know what you have connected to the Internet and get notified if anything changes unexpectedly. This has actually gotten significantly more challenging with services deployed to the cloud where your IT department might not even know which IPs to keep track of.

2. 3rd-party risk assessment: understand the security exposure of your partners, vendors, supply chain or other 3rd-parties. For example, lets say you're an insurance company that wants to provide cyber insurance. Shodan data can help you understand what sort of risk you'd be taking on. The data has also been used in M&A as part of due diligence to get a metric on the security of the IT department of the company they're thinking of acquiring.

3. Market intelligence: basically Netcraft on steroids. Shodan doesn't just have web information but also for many other protocols. This information is used by hedge funds and vendors to understand which products are purchased and deployed to the Internet. The data is skewed due to the nature of public IPs but there are still things you can do.

4. Policy impact: get a measure for how policies at the country-level are impacting Internet connectivity. For example, the OECD used Shodan to get a measure of Internet-connectivity per capita.

5. Fraud detection: is your customer trying to make a purchase from a machine that's been compromised? Or running a a VPN/ proxy? Shodan is used in transactional fraud detection to flag suspicious payments.

Re: Why Is This Website Port Scanning Me?

#347

The greater issue is that browsers are allowing code executing from the public Internet scope (scope meaning security domain) network access to the localhost scope or the Intranet scope (RFC1918 addresses.) If anything, this should require very explicit permission granting from the user. I’d prefer it be something more like an undocumented toggle accessible solely to developer types.

Agreed, or at least disabling localhost and 192.168.0.1 and whatever that is in IPV6

You will usually have a public address with IPv6

Re: Why Is This Website Port Scanning Me?

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the years I've seen "hacker" news become more of an echo chamber and instantly downvote anything against doctrine... I'll be downvoted for saying this.

> I'll be downvoted for saying this. Because it's against the site guidelines. > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Homogeneous idiocracy makes it boring. Knowing conversations that aren't the right conversations won't be allowed is what makes it boring. Citing the site fucking guidlines ...makes ...it ...bor

Re: Why Is This Website Port Scanning Me?

#349
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone's never caught a case. You may not think this is true but the way the legal system works is everything is illegal. Then when they need to get you you are already guilty. Everyone else they just ignore. Crazy, right? LMAO a downvote in 3 seconds. Good old hacker news. Well, downvotes don't make you right. I'm trying to open your eyes and you downvote me. I guess that is to be expected.

Over the years I've seen "hacker" news become more of an echo chamber and instantly downvote anything against doctrine... I'll be downvoted for saying this.

Yep

Re: Why Is This Website Port Scanning Me?

#350

Lots of chat in the comments about how this is all websockets' fault, but don't forget you can portscan localhost with pure JS as well. https://portswigger.net/research/exposing-intranets-with-rel...

Ach! That's diabolical.

Timing attacks make it very hard to prevent port/host probing generally, sadly, with the sheer number of things that are observably loaded cross-origin (iframes in that example, but also images, scripts, stylesheets…).

(In the private/loopback IP ranges we should really just make those requests always fail, but I addressed that in another comment as to why that's not trivial.)

Post reply on HN