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People Who Are Obsessed with Success and Prestige

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Re: People Who Are Obsessed with Success and Prestige

#341

Post by bsanr2 »

minblaster wrote: post #212
bsanr2 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing your homework for you: Jobs had an unusually international background; was born to highly-educated parents who made sure he went to a suitable family when they put him up for adoption; grew up in a relatively wealthy, highly-educated community that was the hotbed of a nascent industry; and was able to do drugs, an experience here considered life-altering, without being arrested or sent to jail. I know the word…

Yes, doing drugs in the 60s was a real privilege. He almost didn’t get adopted because his adoptive parents weren’t well educated enough. And he dropped out of college because he was burning his parents life savings. He had a wonder years middle class life.

He was born in 55, so I imagine we're talking more about the 70s. And yeah, not being arrested for doing illegal drugs is a privilege. And according to his wiki article, he ended up with the parents he did because they promised to send him to college; education was at the heart of the decision-making there.

>He had a wonder years middle class life.

In the middle of the tech revolution's ground zero. In fact, being on a lower rung of the upper-middle class ladder might have been protective, in that he had access, but not too much access. In other words, enough resources (that most Americans of the time did not have) to get off the ground, without being tracked into less risky, more conventional, still lucrative work.

Re: People Who Are Obsessed with Success and Prestige

#342

Post by philwelch »

bambax wrote: post #328
philwelch wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Novels are literally made-up stories. If they actually happened, they wouldn't be novels, they would be memoirs or history or something. We do disagree on whether the purpose of novels is to entertain or to deliver what you call TRUTH. Now, to be as generous as possible to your point, some writers can distill a lifetime of wisdom and experience into a work of literature in a way that expresses some meaningful sense o…

Capitalization really seems to have upset you! It was more shouting than praying, though. I meant to say NO! to the statement that novels are "lies". They are the opposite of that. Lies are meant to deceive and exploit. Novels want to help you find the truth, any which way you want to type it. And to respond to your 2nd paragraph, I'm not saying that (good) novels contain wisdom plainly stated as clever observations…

> I'm not saying that (good) novels contain wisdom plainly stated as clever observations every few sentences

I'm well aware that you're not saying that, and I'm utterly mystified where you got that idea from. By "wisdom", I meant the basic understanding of the human condition. An author who understands the human condition can express aspects of it in literature by constructing characters, placing them in narrative situations, and so forth. And on that count, I agree that literary fiction can be a way to show the human condition.

But that's not what you said. What you said was that literature--in context, meaning fictional literature--"may be the only way to gain an actual comprehension of human nature". That's a ludicrous and hyperbolic statement and if you hadn't gone that far I wouldn't have bothered responding because otherwise I do, in fact, have some sense for what you're getting at.

Re: People Who Are Obsessed with Success and Prestige

#343

Post by bsanr2 »

asdfman123 wrote: post #208
bsanr2 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My brother and I were from a normal middle class background but both went to fancy private schools. I find that people tend to either over or underestimate the "middle class"iness of their upbringing.

My dad worked for city government as a planner for a small suburban town and my mom worked part time as a bookkeeper. My childhood home's estimated value is like $185k. My parents were smart and had a little extra cultural capital but yeah, we were pretty middle class. Maybe lower-upper-middle class.

>Dad was in a managerial, if not directorial, position not threatened by industry collapse, and made enough so that his wife only had to work part time.

I mean, that would do it. I suppose it depends on when and where you grew up. Suffice it to say that this kind of upbringing sounds unusually high-end compared to the actual American middle class for the past 30-odd years (where you would likely find both parents working, home ownership a tenuous proposition, and private schools out of the question).

I point this out mostly because we're sorely in need of a reexamination of what's "normal" and what should be normal in this country.

Re: People Who Are Obsessed with Success and Prestige

#344

Post by Consultant32452 »

bsanr2 wrote: post #339
Consultant32452 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to toss out another example. I make about $150k. I'm a single father. I put the legal maximum into my retirement account every year, which I think is $19k this year. I have 6 months of expenses saved up in my emergency fund. We take a nice vacation every year and have luxuries like season passes to Broadway. Yes, I think it's all about making good financial decisions.

*after you're paid enough to make financial decisions of any sort.

When I was making $35k/yr I was putting 10% in my retirement plan. I just had cheaper vacations, older cars, and fewer luxuries. People don't like to hear it but most financial problems are a character problem more than they are an income problem. The good news is that character flaws are not permanent. We all have them and if we can be self aware enough to acknowledge them, we can address them.

Re: People Who Are Obsessed with Success and Prestige

#345

Post by huffmsa »

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #164
huffmsa wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wanting to be engineer #5549383 at a big company is a fools errand if you want recognition and reknowned. It's like trying to get famous working as the guy who bolts the doors onto the frame at the Belvedere assembly plant. The lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the mouse. All of the people cited in the article (Gates, Musk, Jobs) eschewed "prestige institutions" and worked on what they wanted to work…

>The lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the mouse. This is from game of thrones. Also, former FL Sheriff Scott Israel used that quote in a courtroom after a judge had called him negligent.

No, the game of thrones variant was the opinions of sheep. Which is foolish because the lion should care about his food.

It's also not originally from thrones. It goes back to Aesop. Thanks for playing though.

Re: People Who Are Obsessed with Success and Prestige

#346

Post by huffmsa »

paulgb wrote: post #130
nickthemagicman wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gates Musk and Jobs all came from rich families and were able to work on what they wanted to work on. The people going for prestigious institutions may actually need a job and and are optimizing for the best possible outcome.

Also, I think Jobs is the only one who could really be said to eschew prestige institutuons. Gates went to Harvard and Musk went to Wharton (and Queen's, which is the Canadian equivalent of ivy-league).

I didn't mention their schooling. I only care about where they didn't work.

Re: People Who Are Obsessed with Success and Prestige

#347

Post by christiansakai »

state_less wrote: post #330
christiansakai wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with a seminary background, this hits too close to home "Cusins. Excuse me: is there any place in your religion for honor, justice, truth, love, mercy and so forth? Undershaft. Yes: they are the graces and luxuries of a rich, strong, and safe life."

I hold the old view that justice is a source of strength rather than something bought independent of it. There is honor even among thieves. For example, a just group of thieves splits the bounty and return to steal together again as a team with improved skill, trust and cohesion. Sure they are scoundrels to their community, but they are just with each other. If they weren't, they'd in-fight and become weaker. This is…

Average-wise, would you think majority of humanity fits within this view?

I was born in a 3rd world country, grew up there and now live in a 1st world country. I think in many 3rd world countries, a lot of small time criminals and prostitutes did that because they have no other choice. They have no good jobs, or any jobs. They have no home, no family, no means to pay for their sick children or families. Not saying that people who have those still won't steal.

Re: People Who Are Obsessed with Success and Prestige

#348

Post by damontal »

blueboo wrote: post #234
bumby wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Brooks would probably push back on the hedonic idea of "do whatever makes you happy" somewhat. He seems to advocate cultivating moral character over chasing "happiness". In The Road to Character he writes, "All human beings seek to lead lives not just of pleasure, but of purpose, righteousness, and virtue. As John Stuart Mill put it, people have a responsibility to become more moral over time. The best life i…

What makes that last line so powerful coming from Brooks’ pen is that he wrote it as he was having an affair with his research assistant, for whom he later divorced his wife of 28 years. That must’ve been so morally joyful!

Do you know the circumstances of his divorce? What led up to it? Or are you just saying divorce is immoral?

Re: People Who Are Obsessed with Success and Prestige

#349

Post by akhilcacharya »

oarabbus_ wrote: post #265
akhilcacharya wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair my calculation is if you’re not at near peak TC band when you enter top tech companies it’s hard to impossible to catch up, so the anxiety is warranted.

>To be fair my calculation is if you’re not at near peak TC band when you enter top tech companies it’s hard to impossible to catch up I'm not sure I understand. What is the point you're making? Why is it hard to catch up? What's stopping someone in a mid or low TC band from switching to another company and increasing their TC?

Switching usually means a downlevel or a lateral level transition (extremely rare that someone uplevels from a switch) which limits the upside. You'd always be tied to your prior TC in some way and the effects compound.

Re: People Who Are Obsessed with Success and Prestige

#350

Post by bsanr2 »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #344
bsanr2 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*after you're paid enough to make financial decisions of any sort.

When I was making $35k/yr I was putting 10% in my retirement plan. I just had cheaper vacations, older cars, and fewer luxuries. People don't like to hear it but most financial problems are a character problem more than they are an income problem. The good news is that character flaws are not permanent. We all have them and if we can be self aware enough to acknowledge them, we can address them.

Let me get out the list...

>Before or after taxes?

>What year?

>Where did you live?

>What was your monthly rent?

>Did you rely on your family/friends for ANYTHING (including something as innocuous as "storing your childhood possessions")?

>Did you have any chronic or acute health issues?

>How far did you have to drive for work?

>Did you have friends or family you were obliged to support, even occasionally?

>Did you have a side hustle?

And so on.

Broadly-speaking, making $35k before taxes in 2020 in any major metropolitan area is a tightrope walk at best. The best way to encourage saving is to pay people enough money that they feel comfortable charting out a plan to save. That's a sliding scale, but I would say you hit 80% around the median wage, which is not $35k/yr.

IME the people giving this advice have a critical misunderstanding of either costs or the value of cash relative to when they started out.

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