This is the XY problem. The problem is fragile snowflakes, the solution under discussion is how to adequately munge communication.
Help me ask why you didn't just
341–350 of 363 posts
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#342Okay, I have a question for the author:
Why didn't you just use a website layout which was easy to navigate and understand for people using screen readers? Is it because it's not a topic you've ever considered, or did you do research into it and just find the documentation and available resources lacking? There is only a single heading on the entire page, for instance. Happy to hear thoughts by email (in bio).
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#343The problem appears to me to be around the assumptions that we make when we use the phrase "Why didn't you just use x?" Consider "Did you try x?". It's matter of fact. It offers them the benefit of doubt whilst simultaneously giving them the the opportunity to be oblivious x, without assuming one way or the other. Much easier to begin a conversation with. Speaking about facts makes conversations easier. In tech we're…
Actually the problem in this kind of conversations is often the lack of the "standard litany" initially:
https://jdebp.eu/FGA/problem-report-standard-litany.html
if - from the start - either:
1) sshd was mentioned as tried (detailing exactly how it was tested) but not working
OR
2) sshd was not mentioned among the (several) attempts made
it would become perfectly acceptable to not reply mentioning ssh in case #1 or "Did you try sshd? in case #2.
What commonly happens in real life is that sshd was actually used, in a wrong way, and not mentioned, so when you - after having thought a bit on the problem - propose the "Did you try sshd?" you are perceived as either "obvious" or "condescending" anyway and you get a reply like "Sure I tried it, it didn't work!", without any detail on how exactly it was used, so you also exclude it as a valid possible solution even if (used correctly) it would work.
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thank you, I appreciate your take on this. I personally also like to learn from criticism, but it took me a long time to be able to accept it better. I try to get to know the other developers first to get a feeling for whether or not they're used to accepting criticism. If the other person becomes defensive I try to be more careful, if they seem more accepting I will continue being critical. Usually I would be more o…
Learning to accept criticism isnt easy. I've found one way, at least for me, is to be self-critical. I'm usually harder on myself than my peers. Makes it a bit easier to accept when someone else points out a flaw.
I think it’s something you can develop as a team. One of the best teams I’ve ever worked on took blameless post-mortems very seriously. If a decision you made lead to an incident, then you had to attend a PM, explain what you did, and why you did it. Most people got pretty stressed about their first PM, but would pretty soon come to realise that they were actually quite positive experiences. The team knew that failure was something that was completely unavoidable. You can continuously improve the resilience of your systems, but you will still have failures every so often. As such it’s not ‘your fault’ when you cause a failure, it’s just something that happens, and the only thing we can do about it is learn from it. People would figure out pretty quickly that everybody on the team wanted everybody else on the team to succeed, and that that’s what motivated all critical discussion. This team had succeeded in building a trust that everybody had everybody else’s best interests in mind, and because of that criticism was given openly and without creating conflict or feelings of judgement.
That said, I’ve also learned a lot from giving misguided criticism on PRs. I’d point out something I thought was wrong and the author would come back to me and point out some misunderstanding I had. This sort of work environment is one that naturally maximises personal development, and eliminates a lot of the anxiety people have about making mistakes at work. It takes a lot of continuous effort, but imo developing that sort of culture is far more valuable in the long run than developing social conventions around sugar coating criticism.
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#345Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not everyone is equally socially astute. Some people aren't good at inferring such things. Such people need to work at it to make their life work. Even if you are innately good at it, you may not automatically know how to handle it well if it's a new context in some way. This can include being a foreign national or facing other cultural barriers. The most socially astute people aren't simply "born with" such talents.…
> Some people aren't good at inferring such things. And my advice to those people is exactly what I said: if you're not sure how to communicate what you think is a good suggestion, or how to ask a question you're curious about, without giving offense, because you don't know the people or their work well enough, then don't do anything . That uncertainty you feel is a clue: it means you shouldn't be doing anything at a…
For many people, such advice boils down to "Just be a prisoner of your limitations and don't ever try to overcome them or grow as a person."
I cannot fathom why you have such a big problem with someone using a blog post to crowd source suggested wording to try to explore how to do X better.
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#346"How does it compare to sshd?"
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here's the suggestion: don't ask! This is bad advice and I hope nobody takes it. We learn from each other. I've very glad I didn't have to learn everything I know first-hand. Personally I am honored when people think highly enough of me to feel like they can learn from my experience. I also like learning new things, so if there was some obvious answer that I just missed of course I want to know about it! The correct…
I'm not saying "don't ask questions." I'm saying "Don't ask that specific question that specific way. Get the same information by asking about the problem that's trying to be solved for long enough that you come to the same conclusion that they did that an off the shelf solution doesn't work. And if that never happens and you're never led to believe that an off the shelf solution was inadequate, then just say so."
That sounds like a colossal waste of time when you could learn just as much by asking that specific question.
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Some people might be offended or sensitive to direct questions, but that's for them to work through with their therapist. It's a fair position to take, but in some cases where successful communication is a necessity, that stance doesn't cut it. My go-to heuristic is "the wordier the question, the more likely it is to be perceived as well intentioned." So if I'm wondering why someone didn't use sshd, I might say, "S…
> My go-to heuristic is "the wordier the question, the more likely it is to be perceived as well intentioned." Are you familiar with "How To Make Friends And Influence People"? It trades on exactly this idea. Specifically, it trades on this idea to both seem well-intentioned and manipulate people. It uses this presumption of good intentions to cover the true intentions. It buries everything meaningful under an endles…
Maybe a little embarrassingly, but I've tried to read it a couple of times and usually bailed around chapter 3 or so due to boredom.
I think I know the type of wordiness you're referring to and my term for the type of person that uses that technique is a "snake". The kind of unconscionable person that, like a magician, draws the audience's focus to one point while enacting their trick with the other hand.
I had a particular person in mind when I wrote my other comment. It was a guy I used to work with who initially didn't like me despite my very team-oriented spirit. I think he thought I was a snake.
Eventually our boss noticed our inability to collaborate and forced us two, along with a more senior team member to brainstorm a solution to a particular problem afflicting the project that day.
I have a tendency to relentlessly refine on a solution or quickly reject solutions I don't see as tenable. Sometimes when someone first meets me, they get the impression that I "shoot down" their ideas because of some desire to appear superior.
I do sometimes shoot down ideas but only because I am an umcompromisably honest person, at least with respect to work, which I take seriously. Which isn't to say I'm Dwight Schrute and I go out of my way to shoot other people's ideas down. I just won't lie and say I like something if I don't. I also am aware of this aspect of my personality and go to lengths to suppress it for the sake of those around me. But it is who I am at the end of the day, and I don't intend to change that.
Anyway, at first the guy wanted to butt heads with me, but I did my best to project a patient and collaborative vibe and the senior member encouraged the dude to look at my ideas in a more removed fashion rather than in an emotional way and my teammate eventually came around and began working with me.
That coworker and I went on to become, if not friends, solid collaborators for over a year after that until the point at which I left the company.
I think some people have an initial dislike for overly straightforward people like me, but most usually come around to it and even appreciate it eventually. You don't have to worry about me double crossing you. I'm predictable.
The rest who don't can pound sand as far as I'm concerned.
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#349in philosophy we say: "Standardly, XYZ, but if I understand you, you're saying ABC, are you not? What motivates this difference?" Key points: -identify that you are making an explicit formal comparison to a usual solution -convey a charitable attempt at understanding ("the Principle of Charity"), and how far it took you - attempt to comprehend the problem being solved
But is the contrast between what is “standard” and what is actually used? Or is it between what’s been informed by practice and what’s being suggested in theory? Perhaps presenting the listener as being “out of line” with some form of expectation isn’t the best way to put them at ease. In fact, ideally neither person should feel out of line in a mutual interaction like this.
Perhaps, but I don't speak for myself -- I'm describing a practice that is well understood, like rules of the road.
Re: Help me ask why you didn't just
#350I kind of like "why didn't you just (use simple and obvious solution that doesn't work for some reason?)" If there's a simple and obvious solution that doesn't work and the reason it doesn't work isn't apparent, it's nice to know why.
On the more malicious side of things, one of the more effective ways I've seen people blast something to oblivion is "I don't understand how (your stupid system) solves (intractable problem created by your stupid system.)" Occasionally someone will twist the knife by prefacing it with "Maybe I'm missing something here, but...."