Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work • Hacker News Board

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#341

Post by dijit » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

snovv_crash wrote: post #328

dijit wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this as a very left-leaning person (by British standards at the very least), but in my company strong left leaning values are part of the culture and it's expected that you promote LGBTQ+ issues, promote Women in the workplace and promote immigration. It's not a bad thing in my mind, it's heavy handed at times, I can see how it would rub some traditionalists the wrong way in an extreme way. If you held some for…

What if you support these policies, but don't actively promote them because you're there to do work, not discuss politics? What if you have reservations about specific things that have been lumped in with "left" politics, which you believe are inherently not "left" and do not benefit humanity?

Then don't talk about it; else be labelled something nasty and be effectively unpersoned.

( Not trying to reach for the 1984 language, but it's the most accurate terminology I can come up with.. :\ )

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#342

Post by koonsolo » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

Nullabillity wrote: post #269

aantix wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is fine. The health of my family is more important than your politics.

The health of politics has a massive impact on the health of your family.

Every lunchtime my colleagues and me solve world problems. We talk about how stupid the current leaders are, and how easy it is to fix the problems in the world. We solved world hunger a few times, and also transportation issues and other things.

Then we say "Another world problem solved!" and go back to work.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#343

Post by TheOperator » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

neonate wrote: post #280

anm89 wrote: post #129

I personally think this is awesome. I don't wan't some git hosting startup to be the arbiter of morality for society. The engineers, designers, and PMs shouldn't have an outsized voice in society because they have a specialized useful skillset and ended up on a successful product. If these users are breaking laws, then put them out of business via the courts and sieze the assets (the repos in this case) via legal mea…

Wow, that is such a clear analysis that someone should transcribe it. Here's the main part of what Naval says: "If Google, Facebook, and Twitter had been smart about this, they would not have picked sides. They would have said "We're publishers. Whatever goes through our pipes goes through our pipes. If it's illegal, we'll take it down. Give us a court order. Otherwise we don't touch it." It's like the phone company.…

It's inevitable these platforms will have government mandated restrictions on speech, as well as government mandates to NOT restrict speech. There's no other way to really manage the issue.

Whinging of the poorly informed that free speech protections can only apply to the government aside.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#344

Post by to11mtm » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #168

Without trying to be inflammatory in any manner, I will say that it takes a certain level of privilege to say one shouldn’t discuss politics at work. If you disagree I’m happy to discuss this viewpoint rather than being downvoted to oblivion. Lots of issues are deemed “political”, but imagine you fall into one of the marginalized groups: — lgbt: Don’t discuss the possibility about being fired for your sexuality becau…

> I will say that it takes a certain level of privilege to say one shouldn’t discuss politics at work.

My counterpoint would be that it takes a certain level of privilege to be able to discuss politics at work. Or, to be more specific, anything other than the job you are working. (And, of course, the things your employer can't legally stop you from talking about.)

Or, to put my point more specifically: Almost all of the discussion I have seen ignores that most of these problems are, at their root, class based problems. I suppose what is more saddening from a humanist standpoint is the way the extremists on both sides wish to eventually put the other under their heel.

That said, touching specifically on my personal experiences in Education, the issue is that any Metric based solution will likely run up against Goodhart's law sooner or later. While what I witnessed in Academia was probably far from the norm, I doubt it was rare.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#345

Post by tom_mellior » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

vowelless wrote: post #209

tom_mellior wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being held to a political moral standard is tricky if you are not in the mainline political stance. That would make me quite uncomfortable. I go to work to support myself and my family. Don’t make that hard for me to do due to politics. This cuts both ways: If your employer is known to take millions from ICE to support what ICE does, and your opinion is that ICE is an evil organization, that can also make you "quit…

I would suggest leaving, in that case. If not your employer, some other company will fulfill that contract anyway. Millions of people work in the defense industry. I did too, in a different life. I left due to moral reasons (Not that i am doing anything moral today).

> I would suggest leaving, in that case.

Well, that's the thing. If that's such a simple thing to do, I would suggest that you leave if you're uncomfortable in a company where employees are allowed to voice their opinions on company policies. You supporting your family is not more important than me supporting mine.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#346

Post by crispinb » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #307

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #168

Without trying to be inflammatory in any manner, I will say that it takes a certain level of privilege to say one shouldn’t discuss politics at work. If you disagree I’m happy to discuss this viewpoint rather than being downvoted to oblivion. Lots of issues are deemed “political”, but imagine you fall into one of the marginalized groups: — lgbt: Don’t discuss the possibility about being fired for your sexuality becau…

> We can’t improve without discussion, and it’s unfortunate that these type of issues are so divisive. Around 40% of voters support Donald Trump in some way. Are you sure you really want to discuss politics at work? Do you want someone wearing a MAGA hat explaining to everyone why immigration is too high? Because that is what real political discussion will involve. In fact, I suspect many people who are advocating fo…

> Are you sure you really want to discuss politics at work

It would really depend on the individual Trump supporter whether I would want to discuss politics with them or not.

However I don't think whether I 'want' the discussion has anything to do with anything. Discussion of communal affairs is basic to humans, and my 'wanting' has nothing to do with others' need and right to continue to be human. An employer does not own people (even during their hours of employment), and this kind of clause would be illegal in any reasonable polity.

Obnoxious behaviour, forcing of one's opinion (or neurotic need to discuss) on others, etc, is another matter and prevalent enough in plenty of areas quite outside of politics. The only simple authoritarian solution to that would be to ban conversation altogether.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#347

Post by dang » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

midnighttoker wrote: post #333

dang wrote: post #2

This is a divisive topic, but the story seems to pass the interesting-new-phenomenon test ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ). If you comment, note this guideline: " Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. " We've changed the title in accordance with https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html , but if anyone can suggest a better (i.e. more a…

> We've changed the title in accordance with the site guidelines You've change it away from the story title, which is normally the site guideline isn't it?

The site guideline is "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait." Since Gitlab retracted that part of their policy, that part of the title became misleading. That's why I edited it. As always, we're open to suggestions for a better, i.e. more accurate and neutral, title.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#348

Post by midnighttoker » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

jtms wrote: post #286

anm89 wrote: post #129

I personally think this is awesome. I don't wan't some git hosting startup to be the arbiter of morality for society. The engineers, designers, and PMs shouldn't have an outsized voice in society because they have a specialized useful skillset and ended up on a successful product. If these users are breaking laws, then put them out of business via the courts and sieze the assets (the repos in this case) via legal mea…

I would advocate for Joe Rogan, he is a voice of openness and willingness to talk about things rather than just shutting down conversations because you might not agree. He is also a great listener. The world needs more people like Rogan.

You should shut down conversations with nazis and the far right figures he regularly has as guests. Joe Rogan platforms these people for profit. Joe Rogan is not a good person.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#349

Post by graeme » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

anm89 wrote: post #129

I personally think this is awesome. I don't wan't some git hosting startup to be the arbiter of morality for society. The engineers, designers, and PMs shouldn't have an outsized voice in society because they have a specialized useful skillset and ended up on a successful product. If these users are breaking laws, then put them out of business via the courts and sieze the assets (the repos in this case) via legal mea…

You'd be surprised at what is "not illegal". Every community moderates.

You can make an argument that some sites have moderated too much, or been too overtly political.

But every community moderates, and has to. This can be demonstrated with a simple example. Guess what isn't illegal? Spam!

It should be obvious that FB and Twitter etc have to take spam down though.

Then there's abusive behaviour. Stalking, harassment, etc. Often not illegal, but hurts a platform. Better take that down.

What about propaganda? They should let it all go? That sure sounds like a....phone network. Actually wait, it sounds more like the news media, which has been regulated for decades. A zero moderation policy would likely have led to demands for regulation, too.

And then there's the massive category of topics which are not illegal, but horrifying. Have zero moderation, and you end up as 4chan or worse.

--------

I'm generally in favour of keeping politics out of things, but your "we take stuff down only for a court order" is a naive view. Literally every forum moderates, they have no choice.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#350

Post by buboard » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

sonotathrowaway wrote: post #98

"If your values aren't used to inform who you're doing business with, why do you bother pretending to have values at all? This [merge request] demonstrates that you don't have any values except 'we want to make money, and it doesn't matter who gets hurt.'" It sounds a lot like GitLab has a set of values that it doesn’t feel comfortable openly championing, so it just lies.

that black or white thinking sounds fallacious