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Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

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Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#341

We are, sadly, entering a new age of conformity. Aligning yourself with what main stream society thinks is correct is now more important than anything else. The response of course is that "bad behavior should never be excused, regardless of ability!" which leads to a losing argument in which we try to say what kind of good excuses what kind of bad. But this presupposes the conformist stance: that fitting in with the…

Yes there is a benefit to radical thinking and nonconformity, but "do it without hurting others" is a reasonable line to draw. Stallman was viewed as a toxic individual who caused harm, and this is what our society is trying to weed out. I still believe, perhaps naively, that it's possible to maintain not-normal opinions without causing pain to the people around you. And this is something that everyone needs to do, w…

> Yes there is a benefit to radical thinking and nonconformity, but "do it without hurting others" is a reasonable line to draw.

I'm trying to keep an open-mind here. But can anyone cite specific examples of a person that Stallman hurt in some way or another? And I'm willing to take a very liberal definition for "hurt" here.

Because Stallman's "toxicity" keeps getting brought up again and again. Yet no specific instances are being cited besides vague rumors, anonymous claims, or "you know it, I know it, everybody knows it" type allusions.

So, it's just a simple request. Any actual, specific, non-anonymous claim of somebody being hurt by Richard Stallman in some identifiable way. (For example Harvey Weinstein or Kevin Spacey would have no trouble meeting this criteria.) Maybe, I'm just out of the loop, but I'm certainly seeing a repeated pattern or allusions without specifics in these threads.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#342

If you read the article she notes that the infamous "hot ladies" photo was the result of someone else writing and then snapping that shot of his office door. People only see what they want to see. I see a bunch of people beating up on and attacking an awkward "nerd". It reminds me of high school.

I'm not even sure I have a problem with the hot ladies comment irregardless of whether he wrote it or not.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#343
post #150

Here[0] is a post by someone else who (by his own account) "worked for RMS longer than any other programmer." While he obviously has had a long relationship with Stallman, one of his key takeaways was: "RMS’s loss of MIT privileges and leadership of the FSF are the appropriate responses to a pattern of decades of poor behavior. It does not matter if they are appropriate responses to a single email thread, because the…

Bushnell* writes a very reasonable piece. It deals with a number of issues with Stallman as a leader of the FSF and MIT and suggests Stallman is unlikely to come back to either of those institutions. But he doesn't deal with what the big problem here is - the way this was done is concerning. Stallman wasn't forced to resign by people like him - who are quite happy to say "Look, Stallman, you've dedicated your life to…

Stallman resigned in the face of people who had always known who he was being faced with the reality that the rest of the world also knew. The motivation wasn't the misquotes of his already abhorrent argument.

(source: former FSF board member)

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. I read it as ABC is "call you a hypocrite". I mean it's strong phrasing, but ... your concern seems more of a personal hot-button.

Whether violent ABC or nonviolent ABC, “I’d better not see XYZ or else ABC” is equally inappropriate here regardless.

Is an explicit “I’d better not see XYZ or else ABC” worse than an implicit one? Consider an implicit "you better not have the same opinions as stallman or I will cancel you" for example.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#345
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s autistic. Suddenly the people who were annoyingly vocal about being “inclusive” are forgetting Stallman’s disability. He says “creepy” things because he doesn’t understand social cues or casual communication at a certain level. Everyone in this thread demonizing RMS should be ashamed of themselves. This is the same reason why he can’t hold a relationship, or why he sleeps in his office. He’s just far out there -…

I don’t mean to sound snarky, but this really discounts so many factors in how autism is dealt with and even worse it makes it sound as if autistic people are unable to learn how their actions impact people around them, which is of course completely untrue. Autistic people may have difficulty interpreting things such as social cues, but they are absolutely not incapable. We have indications from many of those closest…

> how autism is dealt with

Stallman was born 67 years a go.

Autism wasn't even a thing.

Until the 1980 it was diagnosed as schizophrenia and only in 1987 a checklist for diagnosing it was proposed

Anyway, not caring too much about other people's feelings when people don't care too much about your medical condition is perfectly acceptable

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#346
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why so black and white? OP’s saying that there are other things besides “logic” (which is often itself just masked “feelings” from someone unaware of their own biases) that are relevant to the problems of the world; not saying that logic altogether is abhorrent and shutting “all logical arguments that come their way” down. You ought to inspect why you yourself are getting defensive over that statement.

I'm not getting defensive I'm pointing out an argument that stems from feelings and is only supported by feelings has no basis in discussion, since they are not axioms for discussion but subjective. The OP starts out dismissing logical arguments and then pats himself on the back for seeing through the grand conspiracy of analytical thought.

> I'm pointing out an argument that stems from feelings and is only supported by feelings has no basis in discussion.

Is this so? Let’s call the statement above P0.

Let’s start from first principles. A discussion is performed by agents (peer interlocutors, a speaker and its audience, etc). I believe we can make it an axiom of our discussion that there are at least two sentient agents involved. Assume two (A1 and A2), without loss of generality. Focus on one of them, A1.

A1 joins the discussion in pursuit of a goal G1, and for that purpose puts forward an argument, as does A2 in pursuit of G2. G1 and G2 might or might not be the same.

Lets not concern ourselves much with the mechanics of the argument, but with the goals and their relation to P0.

Focusing on A1 and G1, it its trivially true that if G1 involves convincing A2 of some fact F, then P0 is trivially false except in the specific case in which A2 is the sort of agent which can only be convinced by a purely logical argument.

Empirically, most humans are not such agents.

Unproven conjecture: No human is such an agent.

Empathic communication (communication relating to feelings) is known to be an effective tool in convincing human agents [1].

Therefore P0 is invalid, arguments based on feelings are likely to have a use in discussion when the goal is to convince.

Let’s, however, assume that G1 is the goal of the idealized logician, to “arrive at the truth, whatever it might be.” Two cases arise:

Either A1 holds all the facts and the means of reasoning required to arrive at the truth, in which case communication with A2 is unnecessary. Or else A1 requires information or processes from A2 to arrive at the truth.

In the later case, if G1 == G2, meaning both agents seek the truth as their primary (perhaps only) objective, and this remains true through the whole discussion, then P0 could apply, under those strengthened premises.

However, if the goal of A2 is not initially the pursuit of truth, or if G2 ever changes after becoming the pursuit of truth, then A1 must attempt persuasion on A2 to (re-)align their goals. This could benefit from an emotional argument.

And this is all assuming A1 has the pursuit of truth as its only goal, and not, say, a performative goal of showing its command of logic, at the expense of the optimal process for arriving cooperatively at the truth. It also assumes that persuasion from one agent might not be used to move the other closer to the truth, or more receptive to future logical arguments, which might be possible in situations where the agent’s internal process is not perfectly logical (consider e.g. the practice of psychotherapy).

As a side note, when the goal G1 is performative, an emotional argument can be cloaked in the language of logic, for example the argument put forward by A1 might on the surface be about the subject of discussion, while intending in truth to convey information about A1’s social standing, for example, to show off education or intelligence by means of elaborate language not otherwise needed to make the argument persuasive or logical (e.g. [2]).

Other possible goals include, e.g. the didactical, the parodical, or that of artistic expression.

[1] https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b879/4bf1a7e6845f87824c52a3...

[2]

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the link. My impression is that RMS mainly had some opinions which were leftover from the “free love” movement of the 1960s and 1970s which were not particularly shocking or out of line back then, but are considered job-losing toxic opinions here in 2019. For the record, as someone who saw that whole movement first hand, I disagree with the whole “free love” movement and think sex should only be done in…

> [P]rostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia ... should be legal as long as no one is coerced. They are illegal only because of prejudice and narrowmindedness. June 28th 2003: http://stallman.org/archives/2003-may-aug.html > I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based…

These are obvious examples of «things you can’t say», e.g. opinions that are considered normal in some societies and times, and anathema in others.

(For reference, in case someone hasn’t read it: http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html)

Without saying anything about my own stance on these opinions, it’s intellectualy weak to consider it a firable offense to have uttered them thirteen years ago. People should be stronger than that, and have a wider perspective.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#348
post #89

If you read the article she notes that the infamous "hot ladies" photo was the result of someone else writing and then snapping that shot of his office door. People only see what they want to see. I see a bunch of people beating up on and attacking an awkward "nerd". It reminds me of high school.

Assuming that's correct, and that the "hot ladies" thing happened as she describes, how do you excuse away all the other inappropriate and harassing behavior he's displayed over the years?

Such as?

Most of "examples" that were in circulation for past days were usually misunderstood jokes that others made at his expense. Seriously - how can one treat somebody mentioning "if he ever hits on you, just tell him you use vim" as an example of what's wrong with rms seriously? Stories about plants being kept by female professors just to scare him away? Please. You need to be completely missing the context to interpret it even remotely close to how it's being used now.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#349
post #34

Umm.... absolutely not. These quotes (directly from his site) beg to differ: > “I am sceptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren’t voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing.” > “There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing par…

You're missing the nuance of the language as selected. "I am skeptical" clearly prefaces a desire to be made aware of actual scientific evidence, to have the citations (references to the evidence) provided. Further, you, and others who keep beating this dead horse, do not realize that it is part of a larger, ongoing, discussion in which (IIRC from prior HN threads), RMS had that skepticism resolved with knowledge by…

In addition to that, this quote had a link to https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/03/paedophilia-...

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#350
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Autism might hypothetically lead to doing that until someone pulled him aside and told him it was creepy and made others uncomfortable. It's not with autism, but I have first hand experience telling a mentally ill person (diagnosis was schizoaffective) that certain behavior is creepy and made women uncomfortable. They didn't listen. They argued it with me very intensely instead. In some cases part of the illness is…

Such person is then not suitable for leadership position nor any position where communication matters. The way leaders interact trickle down and creates culture. People mimic leaders more then we care to admit. And when you put such person in position where women have choice between leaving and being undermined by his behavior or being insulted or have to work around potential danger to reputation etc or what it is t…

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