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Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

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Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#341

Post by mindslight »

zenhack wrote: post #332
mindslight wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it gets talked about much because it's a tough topic that seemingly requires acknowledging each tribe, internalizing it, self reflection on your own biases, patience to remain detached, eloquence to express any synthesis achieved, and still often ends up sounding like you're just supporting the "other team" to the "cool nerds"! This whole thread is overwhelmed with bullshit downvotes, presumably from "g…

I suspect part of the reason others are downvoting you is: 1. It's too much suspension of disbelief for them to think that he really could not have been expected to figure this stuff out on his own. 2. Your comments are also lacking any clear acknowledgement of the real harm here, which makes it read like you're just trying to use that link I posted as a defense for him, without engaging with the details of the situa…

I agree my phrase was overly dismissive, but it was intended to be dismissive. The point isn't to deny the validity of these concepts, but rather to reject being pulled into the drama [0]. The reason that "weird nerds" generally give "geek feminists" a better reception than the "brogrammers" is because their critiques have actual merit. But on the flip side, when those critiques are leveraged into a status play against a "weird nerd", that strikes a deep chord.

As far as downvotes, there is a steady stream of upvotes as well, in a way that a simply missing the mark or being unpopular does not incur. I interpret this as "geek feminists" versus "weird nerds", with the former being more numerous these days.

It's not that the above framework justifies what RMS did, but it puts it in a measured context where it is possible to empathize with it. As opposed to the mainstream narrative which is dead-set on dehumanizing him. And if one wants to honestly consider the "real harm" in his pattern of behavior, that measured context is the only just place to do it - what I alluded to being the ultimate job of the Institute to keep "weird nerds" in check.

But we're now well past that context, and this is a lynch mob rather than justice. If I see someone being chased with torches and pitchforks, it doesn't particularly matter what they are accused of doing - my "herd alert!!" klaxon is blaring. (And yes, I do appreciate the modern luxury of being able to comfortably speak out against the herd, rather than needing to pick up a torch and blend in).

[0] I make irreverent jokes about most of the sensationalist trash in the banal "news cycle" for exactly the same reason - their only relation to me is that of abstract symbols, and they're being used to wage an emotional attack on the audience. Man bites dog? Well, I hope it tasted good.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#342

Post by iliketocomplain »

vkou wrote: post #340
iliketocomplain wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He never said that there's nothing wrong with it, which means you're lying. Shame on you. (disclaimer: I dislike Stallman a lot anyway, but this is just a typical SJW witch Hunt. Because he did in fact never say it's ok nor defended it.) Edit: typo

He has, on record, said that he thinks there is nothing wrong with statutory rape 'as long as both parties consent'. I'm not sure he understands the concept of consent.

He did say (write) that, yes. Still different to what the other poster wrote: that he's ok with non-consentual stuff. He specifically wrote that it might have _seemed_ consentual to the other guy. He nowhere implied it actually was. He also did not defend someone forcing others to do with things against there will while making it look consentual. I assume if one asked him this exactly, he'd say that yes of course it's terrible to force people do to things against their will. I guess, don't really know the guy of course. Cheers on not making stuff up btw, that's really, really cool :) and becoming a rarity :( Edit: excuse all the errors, I'm a phone poster

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#343

Post by lowmagnet »

DanBC wrote: post #321
m000 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyway, he probably should have know better than to weigh in. That's the problem with the internet today. It's too toxic to hold any meaningful public discussion. I'd bet that RMS was open to discussing the point he expressed. Because that's what you do on an old-fashioned mailing list. But apparently he got no response to his email. Instead Selam jumped the gun and started, essentially, a shaming campaign on mediu…

He wasn't attempting to have a meaningful discussion though, was he? He was defending a 70 year old who had sex with a coerced child by trying to say that the word "assault" shouldn't carry either its everyday English meaning or its more specific legal meaning, but should instead have some other meaning that he created.

Redefining words is basically RMS's gimmick.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#344

Post by ocschwar »

enriquto wrote: post #301
jobigoud wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it also has far less of an impact on his life or his goals than resigning from the FSF would He did resign from the FSF as well. https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns

This is a very sad situation. I hope that the FSF does not lose him forever.

He can keep on coding and submitting PRs.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#345

Post by ocschwar »

simulacrumparty wrote: post #180
fortran77 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, then, I guess Gerry Sussmann will have to go next!

https://web.archive.org/web/20101112051649/http://www.jeffre... "Jeffrey Epstein is one of the most amazing, interesting, and brilliant people that I know.” – Gerald Sussman, Panasonic Professor of Engineering, MIT

That is such a disappointment. The MIT ethic is all about proving yourself by doing worthwhile things, not by flashing wealth around. Cool people eat ramen and advance the world's knowledge. Losers drop out of that and work in hedge funds. (Okay, that's an exaggeration, but not by much.)

So for a long established MIT professor to show himself susceptible to a guy like Epstein showing up with a model at each arm and flashing money around is such an unbelievable letdown. Even if nothing else was wrong with Epstein.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#346

Post by brirec »

enriquto wrote: post #301
jobigoud wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it also has far less of an impact on his life or his goals than resigning from the FSF would He did resign from the FSF as well. https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns

This is a very sad situation. I hope that the FSF does not lose him forever.

This is a serious question: has he even contributed anything of substance to the FSF or GNU project within the past decade or two? Has he done much of anything besides give talks scrutinizing non free software?

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#348

Post by azernik »

Bendingo wrote: post #282
azernik wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that Minsky having sex with underage girls would be morally okay is more than tactless - it is immoral.

Except he didn't say anything like this.

From another comment of mine, the specific relevant passage is on page 7. Copied verbatim - line with a '>' is Stallman quoting another e-mail in the thread.

"""

> Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it __rape__ in the Virgin Islands.

Does it really? I think it is morally absurd to define "rape" in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17.

I think the existence of a dispute about that supports my point that the term "sexual assault" is slippery, so we ought to use more concrete terms when accusing anyone.

"""

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#350

Post by amanzi »

pornel wrote: post #318
amanzi wrote: post #248

I think we should be more worried about the control that media (and especially clickbait-worthy online media) can exert over our lives. It's clear to anyone who has done their research, that his quotes were taken out of context or mis-characterised to create a specific narrative meant to fuel anger and drive visitors to the 'news' websites. It's a real shame that we can no longer discuss certain topics without fear o…

His personal website re-states this opinion clearly (see links in other comments). There was nothing mischaracterised or out of context about this. This time he merely made his opinion more visible, and it ended up being the last straw.

I have read all of his comments, in the context they were posted, and my position stands. I have no desire to debate his opinions with strangers on the internet, my fear is how misinformation can be spread by clickbait 'journalism' and how it paints a narrative that is near-impossible to fight.
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