Google Removing H.264 Support in Chrome • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Removing H.264 Support in Chrome

#341

Post by ubernostrum » Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 7:07 PM UTC

CaptainZapp wrote: post #322

ubernostrum wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh! When did the Mozilla ever claim that they do not ship H.264 because it's insecure? Mike Shaver and Robert O'Callahan both -- during the early attempt to frantically spin this as more than just an ideological PR stunt -- pointed to security as a reason why they didn't feel comfortable delegating to other software. See the following posts: http://shaver.off.net/diary/2010/01/23/html5-video-and-codec... http://web…

Well, I still call bullshit. Especially if this is the best you can come up with. Let's see: http://shaver.off.net/diary/2010/01/23/html5-video-and-codec... We have exactly two references to "security" : And I want that not only altruistically, but also because I want the crazy awesome video (animation, peer-to-peer, *security*, etc.) ideas that will come from having more people, with more perspectives, fully partici…

What's sad is that I just realized you've been arguing with a straw man; you've decided I said "H264 is insecure", a phrase which never passed my keyboard, and then went on a rampage against that.

When Mozilla announced its stance on H264 many people, including myself, wondered why they didn't just let some standard third-party plugin do H264 and worry about the licensing, or delegate to the operating system (which, these days, is pretty likely to ship an H264 codec). Their response included a fair bit of hand-waving about security, as you can see clearly from the references I linked. This has been demonstrated to be bullshit, seeing as Microsoft itself released a Firefox extension to get H264 video support through the operating-system media framework, and the world hasn't ended because of it.

Now, how about you add reading comprehension to the list of skills you're going to be working on?

Re: Google Removing H.264 Support in Chrome

#342

Post by tzs » Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 7:08 PM UTC

sid0 wrote: post #310

tzs wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HTML5 is not a standard. It does not yet behave the same in all browsers that implement it. Different browsers implement different subsets of it. The site you cite is meant specifically to show how Apple is doing with their HTML5 implementation. There is simply no point in viewing it in another browser. Viewing it in, say, Firefox would tell you nothing at all about how well Apple has implemented HTML5 in Safari. Thi…

HTML5 is not a standard. It does not yet behave the same in all browsers that implement it. Different browsers implement different subsets of it. And yet they're converging to implementing all of it. The site you cite is meant specifically to show how Apple is doing with their HTML5 implementation. Then it's a Safari demo, not an HTML5 demo. The Microsoft demos use HTML5 and yet work just fine in other browsers. Thos…

> Then it's a Safari demo, not an HTML5 demo.

Correct, which is probably why Apple says: "The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript".

Re: Google Removing H.264 Support in Chrome

#343

Post by jawee » Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 7:36 PM UTC

melpo wrote: post #164

jawee wrote: post #121

It can´t be all about freedom if they´re dropping Theora too. (related: how can Theora be so bad is Vorbis is so good?)

I think you may have misread something there. The link clearly says: "Specifically, we are supporting the WebM (VP8) and Theora video codecs, and will consider adding support for other high-quality open codecs in the future. "

I certainly did misread; thanks for that!

Re: Google Removing H.264 Support in Chrome

#344

Post by pohl » Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 7:53 PM UTC

Does anybody know if it is possible to disable Chrome's automatic updates so that one can pin their version of chrome to the last release that supported H.264?

Edit: found it...

   defaults write com.google.Keystone.Agent checkInterval 0

Re: Google Removing H.264 Support in Chrome

#345

Post by carussell » Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 9:09 PM UTC

carussell wrote: post #291

ubernostrum wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Google can support Flash and work towards openness Here's the thing, though. Mozilla and Google, over the past year, have basically used the video-codecs thing as a publicity stunt. LOOK AT ME I'M SO PURE AND OPEN AND NOT LIKE THOSE VICIOUS CLOSED EVIL APPLE NAZIS (except please please please don't ask us about all that proprietary stuff we still do, please ). It's hard not to see this as hypocritical. So it's pe…

please don't ask us about all that proprietary stuff we still do Like what?

[Regarding being downmodded]

Uh... okay? I'm completely serious here. Please tell me what you're referring to.

Re: Google Removing H.264 Support in Chrome

#346

Post by redrobot5050 » Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 10:14 PM UTC

bandushrew wrote: post #219

patrickaljord wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There aren't (and probably won't be) hardware WebM decoders. The very article states that there are hardware WebM decoders, not only that but Google is licensing the technology for free as in zero dollars: http://blog.webmproject.org/2011/01/availability-of-webm-vp8...

which means that not one of the tablet/mobile devices out there right now supports webM. is that true? how many released mobile devices have hardware support for the webM decoder?

None. And its likely that software decoding of WebM will behave on mobile devices the same way Flash behaves. Okay in newer devices, but laughable in previous generation devices.

Re: Google Removing H.264 Support in Chrome

#347

Post by macrael » Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 11:48 PM UTC

carussell wrote: post #345

carussell wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

please don't ask us about all that proprietary stuff we still do Like what?

[Regarding being downmodded] Uh... okay? I'm completely serious here. Please tell me what you're referring to.

The big one is web search / advertising. The code that is making google money is not open source.

Re: Google Removing H.264 Support in Chrome

#348

Post by macrael » Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 11:51 PM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #287

spoondan wrote: post #242

I like Gruber, but he's almost insufferable on issues like these. These questions are "simple" in the least flattering sense. Let's dispatch them: If H.264 support is being removed to “enable open innovation”, will Flash Player support be dropped as well? If not, why? The premise is that openness is all or nothing. But Google can support Flash and work towards openness, just as Apple can prefer open web standards in…

But Google can support Flash and work towards openness Here's the thing, though. Mozilla and Google, over the past year, have basically used the video-codecs thing as a publicity stunt. LOOK AT ME I'M SO PURE AND OPEN AND NOT LIKE THOSE VICIOUS CLOSED EVIL APPLE NAZIS (except please please please don't ask us about all that proprietary stuff we still do, please ). It's hard not to see this as hypocritical. So it's pe…

I really agree with you, this is the first move in a larger push to make WebM the standard for the web, but I don't yet see what google stands to gain from controlling the video standard on the web. What do they get out of that ownership they dont get out of H264?

Re: Google Removing H.264 Support in Chrome

#349

Post by redrobot5050 » Thu, Jan 13, 2011, 12:11 AM UTC

yanw wrote: post #116

marbletiles wrote: post #25

Google's assumption: People will add WebM encoding to their already complicated video workflows What will actually happen: Chrome will get served h.264 wrapped in Flash. Lose all round, then.

Not necessarily, and not in the long run. These changes will occur in the next couple months By then flash will gain WebM playback support. This move is a good one and it does make sense, I don't think there is room for compromise in regards to the open internet and non-proprietary standards.

Considering how long it took Flash to gain hardware acceleration on platforms aside from Windows, I wouldn't hold my breathe. MobileFlash on Android still ranges from "Sucks" to "it's fine".

I haven't tried Flash video on my android tablet (it has a YouTube app) yet, but I've also rooted it and flashed the firmware to remove a software underclock so my experience may not be representative of any stock devices.

Re: Google Removing H.264 Support in Chrome

#350

Post by redrobot5050 » Thu, Jan 13, 2011, 12:23 AM UTC

bphogan wrote: post #60

soofaloofa wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can equally argue that Apple's stance on video and on Flash is hurting users.

Apple's stance on Flash does hurt users. But its stance on vodeo? Hardly. They chose an established, proven format that has hardware decoding capabilities. That means they could include it cheaply, and in a way that doesn't drain battery like a software decoder would.

Apple's stance is "why should we ship a product with known security holes out of the box and take the heat for it?"

Any user can install Flash. Apple is not depriving the user of anything.

If Google pulls the plug on H.264 on YouTube, they are depriving a lot of users of access. Mobile users (not just iOS users). Wii Users. Blu-Ray players/Web Top boxes.

Will it all eventually get straightened out? Yes, one way or another. But the sudden shift in strategy seems like Google isn't going to care one way or another to who they put out to pasture in order to establish a new de facto standard. It's very 1990s-era Microsoft of them.