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Apple Is Listening

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Re: Apple Is Listening

#341

Post by _ph_ »

macintux wrote: post #257
_ph_ wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can accept that the new Mac Pro has been designed for a very special audience in mind. But if that is so, can we also conclude that Apple hasn't shown any signs of listening to typical developers or photographers? I would be very happy, if they prove me false with yet unreleased machines, but until they do, the Mac Pro doesn't close the matter.

iMac Pro seems like a compelling computer for photographers.

Certainly not a lot of storage - not sure about the graphics card for Lightroom. And of course, quite an expensive machine. Also, one is limited in screen choices to the internal screen, which is very good, but only 27". Also, Apple doesn't sell external 27" displays, so one cannot have a matching second screen.

Yes, the iMac Pro is certainly a nice machine, but quite expensive for what it does and again extremely limiting in hardware choices.

Re: Apple Is Listening

#342

Post by pier25 »

coldtea wrote: post #334
pier25 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> now it's either the iMac Pro or, I dunno, the mini What about the 5K iMac? With an i9 it becomes a very powerful machine that describes your use case perfectly. It's not as repairable as a tower though, but neither are the iMac Pro or the Mini.

It's not upgradable (nor is the mini and iMac Pro) and like the iMac comes with a screen that can't be used on its own (when the computer part is old in 5-6 years).

True, but you can upgrade the RAM, use eGPU via TB3, and add more storage via TB3/USB3. It's not like an iPad.

Re: Apple Is Listening

#343

Post by greedo »

belazeebub wrote: post #109

To give people a bit of perspective, the Macintosh IIfx was released in 1990 for US$8,969 which in inflation-adjusted dollars is ~$17,500 today. The PowerMacintosh 8100 released in 1994 for ~$4,250 which in today's prices is ~$7,300. The original 128kb Macintosh would be ~$6,100 in today's dollars. Those are all the bottom-end models. By contrast, a Chevy S-10 pickup truck was about $7,000 in 1990 (if my googling was…

Completely ignores the fact that technology has gotten drastically cheaper over time.

Re: Apple Is Listening

#344

Post by JohnBooty »

scarface74 wrote: post #332
JohnBooty wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're posting in bad faith. I didn't say "modest means." I said "more modest means" -- compared to a guy who made major cash thanks to an IPO. The vast majority of people on Earth, engineers included, have means more modest than that. Second, I never said "need." However, there are clearly a lot of folks who would benefit from top-tier desktop power (namely, developers) and would pay for it, but can't pay $6K. Like…

Even in 1992, that was way more expensive than the equivalent 386 PC with a better monitor. A laser printer was definitely not the norm. But the Mac Pro wasn’t meant for your average developer. I doubt very many consumers would buy this at all. It’s aimed at businesses and professionals where a $6000 outlay is nothing. Do you really think after 2 years and building up an internal team of “pro users”, Apple didn’t des…

   But the Mac Pro wasn’t meant for your average developer. 
   [...] 
   Apple didn’t say they were “listening to developers”. They 
   said they were listening to pro users.
Yes. That's the entire point. Developers are grumbling because Apple's listening to other pro users, but not them.

I feel like you're at a point where you completely understand Apple's stance ("we are listening to some pro users, but not developers in particular") and some developers' complaints ("boy, we wish Apple would listen and give us a relatively affordable desktop class machine, without a monitor") but are still, for some reason, arguing just for the thrill of it.

    They even made the Mac Mini much more of a midrange computer than it was before.
More of a midrange computer, but not really comparable to high-end consumer desktop performance. It may be illuminating to take a look at other manufacturer's machines using this CPU. If you don't feel like clicking the link, I'll tell you: $1,000 laptops.

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Core+i7-8700B
For a few hundred more (roughly $1400) you can get a desktop PC with a high-end desktop Core i7, giving you anywhere from 20%-60% more CPU performance, high-end GPU, etc. I'd pay $2K for an Apple version of that, but to option an iMac up to similar specs will have you pushing $3K.

Re: Apple Is Listening

#345

Post by raisedbyninjas »

coldtea wrote: post #262
Angostura wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I'm in the middle of writing an e-mail to the Tim address at Apple, saying that if it takes the environment seriously (and I commend them on what they have done so far) they really need to take the next step, be truly 'courageous' and prioritise repairability and expandability in their forthcoming products. Apple in the last 20 pushed the boundaries in terms of sleek and slim, but I argue those are last cen…

> Actually, I'm in the middle of writing an e-mail to the Tim address at Apple, saying that if it takes the environment seriously (and I commend them on what they have done so far) they really need to take the next step, be truly 'courageous' and prioritise repairability and expandability in their forthcoming products. That's not how capitalism works. Between green and more profit, it will always pick more profit. Th…

This isn't totally true. China began refusing most (all?) of foreign recycling a couple of years ago. Now much of the recycling stream just goes to the local dump instead of China's.

Re: Apple Is Listening

#346

Post by scarface74 »

JohnBooty wrote: post #344
scarface74 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in 1992, that was way more expensive than the equivalent 386 PC with a better monitor. A laser printer was definitely not the norm. But the Mac Pro wasn’t meant for your average developer. I doubt very many consumers would buy this at all. It’s aimed at businesses and professionals where a $6000 outlay is nothing. Do you really think after 2 years and building up an internal team of “pro users”, Apple didn’t des…

But the Mac Pro wasn’t meant for your average developer. [...] Apple didn’t say they were “listening to developers”. They said they were listening to pro users. Yes. That's the entire point. Developers are grumbling because Apple's listening to other pro users, but not them. I feel like you're at a point where you completely understand Apple's stance ("we are listening to some pro users, but not developers in particu…

If you want to get a 6 Core I7 with a high end GPU and 16GB of RAM.

Mac Mini 6 Core I7 16GB RAM - $1500

BlackMagic eGPU - $700

$2200

27” 5K iMac 6 Core i9 3.66Ghz 16GB RAM,256GB SSD - $2800.

A 5K display by itself is going to set you back $1300.

So now you’re at $1500 for the Mac itself.

Re: Apple Is Listening

#347

Post by STRML »

pryce wrote: post #96
1024core wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a vi user, I hate the touchbar and its escape "key". I sometimes find myself turning down the brightness instead of getting into command mode which is irritating.

I hear this specific complaint often; I wonder if people don't realize the hit area of the escape key is much larger than the key itself. On my 2016 MBP I can fire it from almost a centimeter from its left edge I do wish there was some haptic feedback, and all my issues would go. Touchbar has been great for scrubbing, provides much finder-grained control of both brightness and volume than the keys did (fine-grained s…

Re: Haptic feedback on the touch bar, see https://github.com/niw/HapticKey, which is surprisingly good despite being a massive hack.

Re: Apple Is Listening

#348

Post by Grustaf »

RickSanchez2600 wrote: post #97
linguae wrote: post #28

I’m glad that Apple is finally updating their Macs again, but at the same time Apple has doubled-down on its refusal to sell user-serviceable, upgradeable, and expandable hardware at prices that are within reach for most customers. The laptops have soldered RAM and soldered storage. The Mac Mini and iMac Pro thankfully have DIMMs, but in order to keep the warranty, you have to visit an Apple-approved repair center to…

With Apple making the Mac Pro so expensive it opens up the grey market for Hackintosh PCs to run MacOS at a fraction of the cost. If Apple wants to beat the Hackintosh they need an ATX based Mac that doesn't cost $5999 but more like $999 that can be upgraded with a better graphics card and etc.

The group of people that really need a super powerful mac but can’t afford 6k is a pretty small niche, not sure they should worry too much about them.

Re: Apple Is Listening

#349

Post by ksec »

Angostura wrote: post #182
linguae wrote: post #28

I’m glad that Apple is finally updating their Macs again, but at the same time Apple has doubled-down on its refusal to sell user-serviceable, upgradeable, and expandable hardware at prices that are within reach for most customers. The laptops have soldered RAM and soldered storage. The Mac Mini and iMac Pro thankfully have DIMMs, but in order to keep the warranty, you have to visit an Apple-approved repair center to…

Actually, I'm in the middle of writing an e-mail to the Tim address at Apple, saying that if it takes the environment seriously (and I commend them on what they have done so far) they really need to take the next step, be truly 'courageous' and prioritise repairability and expandability in their forthcoming products. Apple in the last 20 pushed the boundaries in terms of sleek and slim, but I argue those are last cen…

>be truly 'courageous' and prioritise repairability and expandability in their forthcoming products.

I don't mind if they are not expandable or repairable, if they were design to last, heavily tested for reliability, then I am fine. It should be so reliable to the point Apple is willing to offer 2 years standard warranty to Mac products for the same price, with AppleCare going up to 4 years.

The problem is I am seeing lots and lots of small details that simply ignores reliabilit. And they are not fixing it, such the the Thunderbolt high voltage placement right next to the CPU pin with no separation, cables failing for no reason. Keyboard etc.

And if these were fixed in each iteration of MacBook Pro, we wouldn't have much problem. Except the same problem in 2016 exists as in the 2019 model as well.

And these quality issues were apparent with many newer Apple products. iPad Pro bending when you Open it in box. AirPod 2 with rough finishes that cut your ears, ( and Apple even refuse to exchange it ).

There is a reason why Repair Shops for Apple products are thriving, its because they fail and lots of people are repairing them instead of going to Apple store where their Staff simply suggest a price that you might as well buy a new one.

Re: Apple Is Listening

#350

Post by JohnBooty »

scarface74 wrote: post #346
JohnBooty wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the Mac Pro wasn’t meant for your average developer. [...] Apple didn’t say they were “listening to developers”. They said they were listening to pro users. Yes. That's the entire point. Developers are grumbling because Apple's listening to other pro users, but not them. I feel like you're at a point where you completely understand Apple's stance ("we are listening to some pro users, but not developers in particu…

If you want to get a 6 Core I7 with a high end GPU and 16GB of RAM. Mac Mini 6 Core I7 16GB RAM - $1500 BlackMagic eGPU - $700 $2200 27” 5K iMac 6 Core i9 3.66Ghz 16GB RAM,256GB SSD - $2800. A 5K display by itself is going to set you back $1300. So now you’re at $1500 for the Mac itself.

   Mac Mini 6 Core I7 16GB RAM - $1500
   BlackMagic eGPU - $700
   $2200
So for a mere $2,200 we can have:

1. A two year-old GPU inside the BlackMagic that has roughly roughly half the performance of the GTX 1080 Ti that was state of the art two years ago. Also, for this privilege, we pay $700 for this $200 GPU. https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=Radeon+Pro+58...

2. Whatever nightmares come with eGPU usage in 2019. At a minimum, it's another box, another fan, another power supply, and a cable. And that's if the software side of things actually works flawlessly in 2019 which, last I checked, was still a little hinky.

3. A CPU that is going to be significantly slower than a well-cooled desktop i7 due to thermal issues. https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/11/14/testing-thermal-t...

Even if you just subtract the eGPU (I don't think most developers care too much about that) this is why a significant number of developers just sort of want a fast CPU in a desktop box. It could literally just be the Mac Mini guts in a bigger box.

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