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Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

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Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#341

Post by salawat »

cjbprime wrote: post #208
salawat wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the originators and principle repeaters of the theory, and the various facets that go into it are admittedly built up via synthesis of many different slices of life. The principle source that moved me in the direction that the MAX may not be certifiable without MCAS was from this interview from the Royal Aeronautics Society with D. P. Davies, a well known test pilot for the U.K. ARB, and the past woes that…

> the entire horizontal stabilizer needs to be moved to ensure the nose is brought back down in short order Doesn't MCAS take a long time to significantly move the stabilizer? Like tens of seconds? It's hard to square needing to decrease AoA so dramatically with the actual mechanics of MCAS.

MCAS has a duty cycle of on 10 seconds, off five. It ramps up the degrees per activation up to a max of 2.5 degrees per activation (2.5 degrees per 10 seconds), all the way to max down trim if you let it.

Keep in mind, the entire horizontal tail plane moving has a heck of a lot more influence on attitude than the elevators.

If it were a stringed instrument, trim would be the tuning tabs at the top of the neck, the elevators would be the fine adjustment screws on the body of the instrument.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#342

Post by magduf »

rootusrootus wrote: post #256
magduf wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it necessarily IS a good thing for cooperation to be reduced: the FAA has proven that it cannot be trusted at all for airplane certification. The EU needs to stop trusting the US for anything at all, and start doing more for itself. When the US elected Trump, that should have been the signal that the US could no longer be relied on. Of course, there were many signs and problems before (like when W. Bush was elec…

Less cooperation between the FAA and EASA is not at all good. The whole reason aviation is so safe these days is because we've had good international cooperation from the beginning. The correct answer here is to work together to build/rebuild trust as necessary.

No, it's not, unless you're somehow going to wipe out all the leadership of the FAA and start all over. That obviously isn't going to happen any time soon, and "we're sorry" isn't going to cut it when the FAA is obviously more interested in Boeing's corporate profits than passenger safety, so they simply cannot be trusted again any time soon.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#343

Post by magduf »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #331
magduf wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it necessarily IS a good thing for cooperation to be reduced: the FAA has proven that it cannot be trusted at all for airplane certification. The EU needs to stop trusting the US for anything at all, and start doing more for itself. When the US elected Trump, that should have been the signal that the US could no longer be relied on. Of course, there were many signs and problems before (like when W. Bush was elec…

Trump was inaugurated on January 20, 2017. The 737 MAX was type certified by the FAA on March 8, 2017. That seems like rather a stretch to blame the 737 MAX certification on Trump's election.

The corruption problems at the FAA predate Trump, it's true, but his election is just the latest thing showing just how bad things are.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#344

Post by TheArcane »

hu3 wrote: post #2

A slap in the face to the comments that were dismissing concerns as overreactions and stating that 737-MAX would return to operation shortly. Not in EU at least.

HN is traditionally quite pro-US to the point that many here were defending Boeing during the 737 Max fiasco. Not to mentions the vitriol against the EU when it fined American tech giants.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#345

Post by vkou »

snarf21 wrote: post #322
magduf wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Southwest is that their entire fleet is 737s. So the 737MAX was a big thing for them: they could stick with that same crappy old airframe, but get better fuel economy, and not have to retrain pilots. They don't want to switch to Airbus because that means they can't standardize on a single model and manufacturer, and they'd have to retrain so many pilots too.

I agree but isn't there enough evidence now for Southwest to sue Boeing to make them pay for all the training (after there is a real fix)?

Generally speaking:

1. These kinds of contracts don't come with provisions for compensation for every foreseeable contingency.

2. You can sue anyone for anything in America. But it's going to cost you.

3. You can also make future purchases conditional on how these contingencies were handled in the past.

So, it's likely that a lot of negotiation between Southwest and Boeing will happen. Possibly even some arbitration. If the two firms ever end up in court over this, that would indicate a colossal failure in all the processes that lead up to that moment. (As litigation is incredibly expensive.)

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#346

Post by coryfklein »

FabHK wrote: post #334
wongarsu wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if they manage to dodge civil liability (which is unlikely), a number of nations could bring criminal charges for the deaths caused by the two crashes. In addition most major nations have the option to bring criminal charges against Boeing for endangering the lives of their citizens.

Cessna nearly went bankrupt due to liability lawsuits. The consequence was not safer planes, but fewer planes. I think the right way to go here is (proactive) regulation and certification, not (reactive) law suits.

I think the scale of economies between Cessna and Boeing are going to be hard to compare.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#347

Post by mcny »

munk-a wrote: post #292
evanagon wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are financial incentives if their customers choose competing products because of safety concerns.

I don't even know how I'd do that - even if I tried to book a flight that specifically didn't use a boeing plane in the US domestic airlines will swap out planes for different ones all the time due to maintenance requirements. Choosing to use a competing product as an end consumer would require an immense sacrifice (like refusing to board your flight if it happened to be a Boeing, which you might get a rebate for?).…

If airlines have to pay more in insurance premiums or they have to pay millions of US dollars a pop for each dead passenger, they'll demand a safer plane.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#348

Post by yeahitslikethat »

retSava wrote: post #115
radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

The MCAS will likely be fixed in a way that makes it reliable and dependable. Boeing wouldn't dare anything else since there are a lot of eyes on them and how they handle this now. What worries me is not the MCAS (now), but what else might be lurking under the surface that Boeing pretends is not a problem. I don't feel confident that Boeing would accept the cost of grounding the fleet the next time something serious-…

I take away that they do NOT put lives above numbers. Revisit the ford pinto case.

They knew there were problems with the design and flew the planes any way.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#349

Post by tzhenghao »

MobileVet wrote: post #13

Good. Hold them accountable and make sure that this kind of thing doesn’t happen again. Although a ‘same plane’ cert was a good goal, they should have made sure it was truly accurate instead of bending the case to make it so. This may be as close to an ‘open and shut’ case for corporate gross negligence as we will find in quite a while (at least I hope so). I would hate to see them go under but it should be clear tha…

You reminded me of the Lauda Air Flight 004 crash, and Niki Lauda pushing Boeing for an explanation [1]. RIP Niki Lauda

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004#Lauda's_v...

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#350

Post by bennybob »

atonse wrote: post #152
retSava wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MCAS will likely be fixed in a way that makes it reliable and dependable. Boeing wouldn't dare anything else since there are a lot of eyes on them and how they handle this now. What worries me is not the MCAS (now), but what else might be lurking under the surface that Boeing pretends is not a problem. I don't feel confident that Boeing would accept the cost of grounding the fleet the next time something serious-…

Unless you start putting Boeing executives in jail, there is literally ZERO incentive for them not to repeat all this. In fact, the CEO and senior executives have probably already received their massive bonuses for the MAX sales. It's not like they're going to be asked to return those bonuses now with all this fiasco.

I'm not against them going to jail. However there is another incentive, it's generally bad for business if your product kills people.
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