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Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

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Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#341
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that fundamentally you can in software undermine any degree of real ownership. Say I sell you a car outright. I decide to push an update that bricks the car and pops up a window on the in dash entertainment with an offer to re enable it for a monthly fee or an offer to buy it back for pennies on the dollar. I think we can agree that I basically just stole your car and offered to rent it to you. My abilit…

I'm in no way saying that companies should be allowed to do evil things like that, only that the justification for preventing them would be consumer protection, not device ownership. Which I guess in your world is option 1. I actually think the option 1 world would actually be better than deriving rights from device ownership because then it would be super easy to get around by renting devices or by using SaaS servic…

Can't we just own our hardware AND have consumer protections?

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is getting into market definition, which is kind of complicated and subjective, but one of the key factors is substitution. So for example, is "Clorox bleach" its own market, separate from just "bleach"? Well, no. Clorox bleach is chemically identical to any other bleach. You could switch one for the other and not even be able to tell the difference. On the other hand, is "broadband internet service in Pittsburg…

This is inaccurate though. You would still have to buy a new $600 phone to use that $1 app irrespective of whether Apple had multiple stores or not. iOS is a platform and apps can only work on that platform.

> You would still have to buy a new $600 phone to use that $1 app irrespective of whether Apple had multiple stores or not.

You need a phone to use an app in the same way that you need a piece of real estate to get internet service. That doesn't mean Cox in Omaha is a competitor to Comcast in Pittsburgh, because people aren't reasonably going to make a choice with hundreds of times greater implications just in order to do that.

> iOS is a platform and apps can only work on that platform.

You're only providing reasons that it is a separate market from apps on other platforms.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#343

It would be nice if people in this thread could stop expressing surprise that Justice Kavanaugh sided the way he did when these people presumably have no idea which way Kavanaugh has decided for similar cases in the past.

This is flippant and non-helpful. If you disagree with how his record is characterized, then please post counter examples. But let me post the following: + Rejected challenges to NSA authority + Rejected workers rights to picket + Opinionated diverting public funds to religion schools + Rejected meat labeling requirements + Repeatedly restricted the EPA https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/09/brett-kavanaugh-tr...…

My comment was not flippant at all, and it appeared it was very helpful, because it caused you to actually dig in to why you might be surprised that Kavanaugh sided the way he did, and you are the first (and only) person in the thread to do so.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6 years is awfully short for this sort of thing. What we absolutely need to avoid is having justices have to care about reelection, which means we need to say justices can only ever serve one term, which means we need longer terms.

> What we absolutely need to avoid is having justices have to care about reelection It's an appointment, so they would only have to convince the president. Or you can prevent reappointment at all.

Ok "reelection" is the wrong term, but if anything this is worse, because if judges can have multiple terms then it means they're beholden to the current president when their term ends and therefore will be heavily swayed by party politics. This is why judgeships are normally lifetime roles, though the important part of "lifetime role" is "only one term" and not "never ends".

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vertically integrating and excluding competition is exactly what antitrust covers! The monopoly that Apple has on the app store for the devices it sells allows it to exploit consumers with pricing. That's the case that the Supreme Court has allowed to move forward. AWS is also a platform but they don't lock customers into only using AWS or AWS-licensed services. This is almost as preposterous as saying, "Someone boug…

All the vertical integration Apple has been able to muster hasn't prevented more open competition from growing in the smartphone market, so your point continues to remain moot. Again, to make your case, you must argue that Apple products are categorically different from any other device available on market and that they are preventing new entrants from competing with it, which is so blatantly not the case here.

Addendum after edit time passed: the final and primary criticism I'm making about this argument is this: if you selectively narrow your view to the Apple ecosystem and ignore all external entities, you would easily come to the conclusions you are coming to. I believe that is an artificial and distorting narrowing of the scope that must be considered in this argument.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#346
post #4

For those who don't want to read the opinion: SCOTUS holds that Apple can be sued for alleged monopoly of the Apple App Store. It does not decide whether or not this alleged monopoly exist. Interestingly, it's a 5-4 decision, with Kavanaugh writing the decision, joined by the 4 liberal justices. Probably the most unexpected alignment of the current term!

This is what is great about it being a lifetime appointment. There is literally nothing else for these folks to strive for except being well regarded in the history books, so they can finally do what they regard as the best thing to do.

There are valid arguments against term limits for judges, too.

I think that the terms don't actually matter much. The real problem with SCOTUS is that it represents extreme concentration of political power in our system that doesn't have any direct checks on it. Then you have stare decisis, which makes it so much harder to overturn decisions - so even indirect checks are limited. That's why its lack of accountability (e.g. term limits) is such a big problem. It's also why it was inevitable for it to become more partisan over time - having a partisan majority on the court is basically the equivalent of having nukes, and once one side starts moving in that direction, the other will inevitably follow. And now we're at the point where many people vote for president solely on the basis of what kind of judges they will appoint - and it's not even an irrational approach.

So I think that it's better to make the court less powerful, such that those appointments are not quite so important. One particular idea that I had is to abandon simple majorities as the way to decide matters on the court, and run it more like a jury - basically, the only way to declare something to be definitely unconstitutional, or definitely constitutional, should be by unanimous decision, or perhaps a strong supermajority (say 7 out of 9?). If a panel of people who are specifically chosen as legal experts cannot agree what the Constitution means with respect to something, I think the most sensible interpretation is that it's ambiguous - but then going with a simple majority would be very wrong.

Instead, if the judges cannot agree, this should automatically trigger a constitutional amendment process. Basically, have them all write opinions explaining why they cannot agree with their opponents on the court, and what changes to the Constitution would be necessary before they can agree. Submit all those changes as proposals for ratification, using the normal process, except that only one can be ratified, and that automatically rejects the other changes. If one of the amendments is ratified, that resolves the issue unambiguously and with an explicit rule for future cases like that. If none get ratified, then the lower court decision stands, but it does not set a precedent - the constitutional question remains open, and can be challenged again.

I would expect this to result in more unanimous or supermajority decisions with less extreme and more narrow effects, because the judges would be more likely to try to hammer out a compromise to cross the threshold.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#347
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SCOTUSBlog is my go-to source for all SCOTUS news and discussion. https://www.scotusblog.com/2019/05/opinion-analysis-divided-...

The audio overlay with the transcript is always amazing. https://www.oyez.org/cases/2018/17-204

That was amazing. Never knew this kind of resource existed, thanks!

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#348
post #4

For those who don't want to read the opinion: SCOTUS holds that Apple can be sued for alleged monopoly of the Apple App Store. It does not decide whether or not this alleged monopoly exist. Interestingly, it's a 5-4 decision, with Kavanaugh writing the decision, joined by the 4 liberal justices. Probably the most unexpected alignment of the current term!

> Interestingly, it's a 5-4 decision, with Kavanaugh writing the decision, joined by the 4 liberal justices. Probably the most unexpected alignment of the current term! It isn't really. It's just the standard partisan split, albeit with one guy "crossing the floor". Such crossing is common but since most of the media is incapable of understanding anything but partisan point scoring, they portray the Justices as parti…

Additionally, while Gorsuch ruled in favor of Apple, it is clear from oral arguments that Alito/Gorsuch have little respect for the Illinois Brick argument.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#349
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could it be any other way? To the extent that government benefits increase I would expect hourly wages to go down for those beneficiaries. This would be the nature result of a competitive market place.

I doubt you comprehend how absurd this situation is. Benefits are inversely proportional to income meaning that a below survivable wage requires people on the verge of not being able to eat to actually step down in pay in order to take the natural progression of an increase in wages. In order to avoid this you just don't let people pay less than a minimum survivable hourly wage so they can't force the government to s…

I understand what you are saying regarding the relationship between income and benefits. I think it is actually somewhat worse than you suggest due to the various step functions in the benefit calculations -- an increase in wage income can actually result in a larger decrease in benefits.

In the absence of a minimum wage constraint, and all other things being equal, a change in government assistance is going to result in an opposite change in the market wage rate. This is just a statement of market mechanisms. When the labor pool has access to higher benefits, it is easier for an employer to find someone willing to work for a little less than before (and vice versa).

The two situations are somewhat different though. In the first case you are talking about an individual moving themselves into a different market (unskilled/untrained labor to improved skills/experience, for example). Ensuring that this progression isn't penalized via overly aggressive reduction in benefits is a good thing irrespective of any minimum wage constraints. In the second case you are talking about a global change to the market constraints for all participants.

So I was just responding to the parent to say that when the government changes its "formula" for benefits, it is entirely reasonable and expected for the market to find a new equilibrium. This isn't an example of Walmart or any other employer "using federal money to subsidize their workforce". This is just the market doing what it does.

As for your minimum wage concerns, a minimum wage prices some people out of the labor market entirely. Someone with minimal skills or experience won't be able to bring enough value to an employer to cover the minimum wage. I think it would be much better to get rid of minimum wage rules and adjust benefits accordingly. It makes more sense for someone with minimal skills to have a job (and thus a path towards more skills) and some additional public assistance than to have no job at all and be 100% dependent on public assistance.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#350
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The audio overlay with the transcript is always amazing. https://www.oyez.org/cases/2018/17-204

That was amazing. Never knew this kind of resource existed, thanks!

The best part is how the headshot of the Justice is highlighted when he or she is speaking. It's great. Since there are no cameras allowed in the Supreme Court (thank God), this is I think the best approximation there is. June is right around the corner too, so there will be plenty more to go through soon.
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