Google Is Eating Our Mail • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#341

Post by aeorgnoieang » Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

coryfklein wrote: post #313

maxaf wrote: post #9

> I'm sure there is no malicious intent behind this How can anyone be sure of this? This is only one of Google’s practices that seems to follow a pervasive pattern of eroding open internet standards while presenting Google’s own proprietary implementation as somehow superior. Eventually, the open standard loses all meaning because the most popular implementation does not actually adhere to it. Meanwhile, Google reaps…

>> I'm sure there is no malicious intent behind this > How can anyone be sure of this? I know this would sound crazy to an alien learning English but the phrase, "I'm sure there is no malicious intent" in this context actually means "I don't presume there is malicious intent". It does not mean, "I have a positive reason to believe there is no malicious intent."

Actually, I interpreted it as exactly "I have a positive reason to believe there is no malicious intent." and I presume the positive reasons are, e.g. most people not being malicious. "I don't presume there is malicious intent" is significantly weaker than the original.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#342

Post by pfortuny » Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

prlambert wrote: post #270

mcsb4 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this I just happen to have set up an email server and encountered the same problems with Google as described in the article. I own the IP since quite some time, it is not on any black list, reverse DNS is set up etc. but Google rejects email as spam. And this even happens when the gmail account has added the sender in his address book and has send the first email to…

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. Our analysts are looking into the issue described in the article, hopefully we find something we can fix that will resolve this.

Let’s say conforming to usual behaviors? That is simply what the article is asking for.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#343

Post by kazinator » Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

Running your own e-mail server for receiving SMTP makes a lot of sense in many ways. I've been doing it for close to a decade myself.

Sending SMTP yourself (directly, without an SMTP relay service) sets you up for trouble.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#344

Post by mthoms » Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 6:08 PM UTC

ericol wrote: post #285

asark wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think (some of them) may think that's true, but their internal reward structures and top-down priorities are clearly set up such that it's not, in practice. There's no other reason it could be so bad.

I live in Argentina. Few years back, an ex government official from the previous government was caught in the act of hiding 8 million dollars in a church. My partner's auncle was also an ex government official from the previous government. He was in charge of the country's office for regulation work in rural areas. Up to that point, he was a complete believer that the government he was part of, was there to really ch…

>Also, I think that right now companies like Google and FB should be treated and reasoned about like states. To think that they will not abuse their power in one way or the other - just like countries do - is also "a little" naive.

That companies this big ought to be reasoned about just like Nation States is a very interesting idea.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#345

Post by Rondom » Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 6:11 PM UTC

prlambert wrote: post #183

reaperducer wrote: post #8

Google has no incentive to fix these kinds of problems. It's big enough that when someone complains that a message sent wasn't received, the intended recipient will say, "I never have problems with my Gmail account. It must be you." And the sender has to switch to Gmail to reliably communicate with the outside world. I wish this was just paranoia, but we've seen multiple discussions on HN about Google programs and po…

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

I have never used Postmaster-tools. Is there any particular reason why it requires a Google-Account?

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#346

Post by chezhead » Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

antt wrote: post #340

npsimons wrote: post #328

I'll just chip in with everyone else who is also self-hosting: I'm in a similar boat; been running email servers since before GMail existed. My personal one I've been running out of a home server closet since 2001. I've also done everything I can to guarantee I'm not running an open relay and not sending email unsolicited. Have been mostly lucky so far, but occasionally I will have people on mailing lists I manage (p…

Google seems to have entered terminal senility. In my circle of friends googles search engine is pretty much useless, they have killed all the useful applications we used and now this. I can't help but think that we are seeing the google transition to late 90s microsoft now.

What do you mean by "In my circle of friends googles search engine is pretty much useless"

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#347

Post by Aunche » Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 6:15 PM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #164

Tepix wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right response to this problem - for gmail users - would be to switch to a different email provider. After all, if you are not receiving important mails because Google decides to block them for inexplicable reasons, you are getting an inferior, faulty service. (For me gmail is inferior regardless as my privacy is violated)

Can you suggest free email provider with similar level of service which allows to use your own domain?

Zohomail is free, though it's not particularly reliable.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#348

Post by mintplant » Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 6:15 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #322

dingus wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the response. From someone who has operated a mail server since 2002, it comes across that Gmail does not care about cooperating with small but legitimate mail servers. SPF, DKIM, reverse DNS, no blacklists, no open relay, longtime ownership of IPs, etc etc. Using various mail testers returns a 10/10 deliverability score. And yet, messages sent to Gmail always go into the spam folder, or are never delive…

I've had gmail send the following to the spam folder: - Legitimate class action notices related to Amazon purchases. - Email coming from addresses to which I had already sent email. (!) - Email from my landlord. - Email coming from Google itself. Based on the contents of my spam folder, which I have to check fairly often because of the extreme overaggressiveness, I would be vastly better off if nothing ever got filte…

> - Email coming from Google itself.

Yep. I missed an invitation to a Google-hosted event at a conference I attended because the email (from an @google.com address, no less) got caught in Gmail's spam filter.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#349

Post by davidjade » Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 6:18 PM UTC

prlambert wrote: post #183

reaperducer wrote: post #8

Google has no incentive to fix these kinds of problems. It's big enough that when someone complains that a message sent wasn't received, the intended recipient will say, "I never have problems with my Gmail account. It must be you." And the sender has to switch to Gmail to reliably communicate with the outside world. I wish this was just paranoia, but we've seen multiple discussions on HN about Google programs and po…

I'm one of the PMs for Gmail and hang around HN quite a bit. This is my personal take, not an official reply. It's simply not true we have no incentive to fix this. Here are a few: Firstly, Gmail's success is entirely predicated on the health of the global email ecosystem. Gmail does not, inherently, have any network effects (unlike FB, messengers, any other comms tool of Gmail's scale). Email itself, of course has a…

I've had emails sent to gmail users from our paid MS Exchange accounts blackholed. And not just randomly once or twice. My wife was a contractor for someone and despite having years of previous conversations with them, one day they just stopped getting her emails altogether. She had to create a gmail account just to keep working with them.

Re: Google Is Eating Our Mail

#350

Post by gtirloni » Fri, Apr 26, 2019, 6:19 PM UTC

ok_coo wrote: post #323

ghostly_s wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are going to be false positives, we will make mistakes, but we certainly care a lot about fixing issues like this when we hear about them. Oh really? Then what is the mechanism by which an affected user can report an issue like this and receive individual, accountable response? Because that is what a company that cares about fixing issues does. As far as I can tell, the only redress available for any issue li…

This is the part that's going to bite them when antitrust comes around. They are largely unaccountable and there's no real way to get a hold of a human being unless you shame them on social media and it gets enough traction.

If you're a paying customer, you definitely can get a human being to look at your problem.

The difficulty in this case is the people operating SMTP servers are not paying customers, the free Gmail users are not paying customers and the GSuite paying customers don't think it's their problem (after all, the spam filters works quite well these days and lots of people are on Gmail, making the problem very small in the receiving end of this situation).

It seems an external force will have to push Google in the right direction (of having systems in place to deal with the exceptions). If that's going to be public outcry, legislation, etc... We will see.

On the automation front, it seems Gmail could do a better job at tracking sender reputation over time (i.e. you haven't send spam in a while, we'll be more lenient with our spam rules).