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Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image

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Re: Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image

#341

Serious question HN: If Katie was a man do you think people would be going through git histories and their published papers trying to determine if she is being over-credited for her achievements?

No, but if it was an "unlikely man"... I work with Computer Engineers and Scientists, and I know what is an "unlikely" person. That's a really handsome soft-spoken guy, wearing a shirt and clean shaven. That guy tries to sell you software but you know he has no bloody clue what he's talking about. If it was some "unlikely minority" - for instance Asian person regardless of gender would not be checked, while some other groups might be seen with more suspicion. You can see this as a security check. Yes, it's prejudice - but, in a way, it's a good kind. We aren't saying "she couldn't have done it because she's a girl", all we're saying "based on our life experiences - person of that age, gender and demographics is unlikely to have played the most important role in such a project". Now we try to check our suspicion, if it's proven to be wrong, and indeed she was the most prolific contributor - then next time similar person would get an award we would be less suspicious! All about life-experience!

Re: Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well luckily we can verify just how much code she actually committed to the project. The Event Horizon Telescope Analysis Toolkit is a publicly available repository on Github: https://github.com/sao-eht/eat according to Katie's profile klbouman, she was responsible for a subset of that toolkit known as hopstools - which is described in the readme as "tools to convert data from the HOPS format": https://github.com/klb…

Lines of code is not, and will never be a metric for gauging project contribution. Most of that 850,000 lines of code is likely boilerplate setup code.

850,000 loc vs what looks to be an initial commit and a merge: https://github.com/klbouman/hopstools/commits?author=klbouma...

if I'm wrong here please point it out

Re: Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image

#343

Her story is trully inspiring! She seems like a really likable person, has been hard working, with great results, making a major contribution. The photo with her and the hard drives is amazing and I am sure she will inspire many to enter science. However, I think to call her "the woman behind the first black hole image" is a hyperbole. It makes it sound as if she was _the one person_ responsible that all this came ab…

> This is what makes me somewhat feel that this focus on her is not quite fair. Thought experiment: if you saw an article titled "Jony Ive: The Man Behind The iPhone" would you be commenting on how unfair it is to single him out? After all, he just designed the thing, a huge team of people built the software and the hardware that actually made it possible.

People do that all the time when everything Apple gets attributed to Steve Jobs.

Re: Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image

#344

Her story is trully inspiring! She seems like a really likable person, has been hard working, with great results, making a major contribution. The photo with her and the hard drives is amazing and I am sure she will inspire many to enter science. However, I think to call her "the woman behind the first black hole image" is a hyperbole. It makes it sound as if she was _the one person_ responsible that all this came ab…

From the article: "But Dr Bouman, ...insisted the team that helped her deserves equal credit."

my criticism is not aimed at her at all - but at the media.

and yes, she emphasised this elsewhere, too, which imv shows what a great and humble person she is.

Re: Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image

#345

Her story is trully inspiring! She seems like a really likable person, has been hard working, with great results, making a major contribution. The photo with her and the hard drives is amazing and I am sure she will inspire many to enter science. However, I think to call her "the woman behind the first black hole image" is a hyperbole. It makes it sound as if she was _the one person_ responsible that all this came ab…

> This is what makes me somewhat feel that this focus on her is not quite fair. Thought experiment: if you saw an article titled "Jony Ive: The Man Behind The iPhone" would you be commenting on how unfair it is to single him out? After all, he just designed the thing, a huge team of people built the software and the hardware that actually made it possible.

Yes, absolutely. I've made comments before to the effect of: I cringe hard enough to actually feel physical discomfort every time a headline refers to a team effort of SpaceX as "Elon Musk's Rocket."

Re: Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image

#346

Serious question HN: If Katie was a man do you think people would be going through git histories and their published papers trying to determine if she is being over-credited for her achievements?

I mean if she was a man I doubt two members of congress would've have bothered to comment or that there'd be article after article focusing on them specifically.

Re: Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image

#347

Serious question HN: If Katie was a man do you think people would be going through git histories and their published papers trying to determine if she is being over-credited for her achievements?

On the one hand, no, not in a public setting.

On the other hand, looking at git histories is basically how the social parts of engineering (e.g., money and power) at a place like Google works, at its fundamental level.

This has persisted for a very, very long time. I still remember when people would comment things like, "I worked with so-and-so unorthodox former Google employee, and he didn't commit code."

There are a lot of Googlers on HN. There are a lot of people who work at places that culturally align themselves with how that company runs.

It probably has something to do with why some women feel underpaid or unwelcome at these places.

It definitely has something to do with people commenting things like, "So is this the case of the product manager taking credit..." The tension between the product manager who "didn't do anything" and the engineer who "did all the work" and how the "org" sees that and measures "performance" are all swimming in the back of HN people's heads when they snipe some random academic.

Settling the score in a way so reductive is extremely appealing. But at least in duels, the other person gets to fire back.

Re: Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image

#348

Her story is trully inspiring! She seems like a really likable person, has been hard working, with great results, making a major contribution. The photo with her and the hard drives is amazing and I am sure she will inspire many to enter science. However, I think to call her "the woman behind the first black hole image" is a hyperbole. It makes it sound as if she was _the one person_ responsible that all this came ab…

Yes won't someone spare a thought for the men

Re: Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image

#349

Is this the correct repo? https://github.com/achael/eht-imaging/graphs/contributors I didn't realize this was public code. It looks like one "achael" is the author of this, though.

If that's the correct repo:

klbouman 90 commits 2,410 ++ 1,265 --

achael 566 commits 850,275 ++ 131,044 --

Re: Katie Bouman, the computer scientist behind the first black hole image

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I agree with the point you have raised, it can sometimes be a little tricky to draw the line. Should we have Microsoft cited for projects completed using their software or system? Should we always cite Newton when using calculus? I think society implicitly assumes that there has been a tone of people backing up a single individual towards their main achievements and that the individual is humble enough to kn…

That's why I said "actively." From my perspective, if in order to accomplish your work, you need consult or active collaboration with a computer scientist and otherwise could not develop/test your theory or conduct your experiment, then they almost certainly should be cited as an author/collaborator. If you utilize something OTS outside the project that just works for you and don't need a computer scientist, then wha…

> That's why I said "actively."

That's one of the reasons I said "I agree with the point you have raised".

I also think you have once again, raised some good points. Hopefully, others will use similar structures when writing and publishing their research.

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