Explaining Sex Rate Changes • Hacker News Board

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#341

Post by thefounder » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 11:10 AM UTC

maxkwallace wrote: post #301

freyir wrote: post #26

As the article points out, fewer young men are having sex, but roughly the same number of young women are having sex. I wonder if dating apps (Tinder, Bumble, etc.) are leading women to have sex with a smaller cohort of desirable men. Years ago, OkCupid noted that a small percentage of men get an overwhelming percentage of messages from women. With the rise of "swipe right, swipe left" mobile dating apps, where peopl…

"swipe right, swipe left" acts as a filter but it's not how people choose partners. People choose partners based on chatting after the swipe and the overall impression/feeling they have when meeting in-person. The belief that the majority of women on the dating market choose partners primarily based on looks and status is a fiction that's part of a broader narrative insecure men tell themselves to help rationalize th…

Chances are that you might get skipped in the first place with no chance to chat or meet in person. It's basically marketing. If the user doesn't click on the link or call the number you get no sale regardless how good your product is.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#342

Post by simonh » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 11:11 AM UTC

dsr_ wrote: post #306

simonh wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stabilising effect of monogamy isn't to prevent wars between nations and societies, it's to manage violence and conflict within a society. It works too and is not just a small effect. Of the 20 most unstable countries in the world, all 20 are very to somewhat polygamous[0]. [0] https://medium.economist.com/big-love-and-big-war-exploring-...

You might consider that formal polygamy is directly linked to (a) religious authoritarianism, (b) gender inequality, (c) reduced education for women, (d) lowered economic productivity, (e) low standard of living. When all those things travel together, it's not clear that polygamy should be viewed as the primary cause.

That's a good challenge, thanks. I suppose we'd have to do a historical analysis of societies to try and tease out the relative effects of each of those factors independently.

It’s not clear to me how the first three would lead to social instability though. There have been plenty of religiously authoritarian cultures that were quite stable. Similarly gender inequality and reduced education for women have been common historically and it’s hard to see how they would lead to social instability and violence. After all it’s not very common for women to rise up violently against gender based oppression, that just doesn't seem to be the dynamic.

I can certainly see how low productivity and standards of living could lead to violence. Desperate people can reach for desperate means. Nevertheless there are many very poor countries round the world and only some of them are significantly polygamous. The fact that the most unstable 20 are all to some degree polygamous seems to me to be a pretty strong correlation. If polygamy can be a driver of social instability though, it’s fairly straightforward to draw a logical causal link from that instability to all sorts of other social and economic ills.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#343

Post by magicalhippo » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 11:12 AM UTC

jamescostian wrote: post #127

Ask a heterosexual woman in that age range about how many awful conversations she's had with men in that age range via dating apps. She won't say "a few", she'll say "A LOT", and be able to show that the vast majority of messages she gets are either very dry or insanely forward (sexually). If you're a great-looking guy and you can't start or hold a good conversation, you can still get laid on the basis of looks. But…

> or insanely forward (sexually)

If you're not after a relationship but to get laid, then that might be a good strategy. Yes you'll get much fewer positive responses but but the false positive rate should be way lower.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#344

Post by zimablue » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 11:14 AM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #256

raxxorrax wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this problem will be addressed more and more by mail order brides or something like that for males in more prosperous nations, at least at the point when more men realize that they need to capitalize on their economic situation. The poorer countries are left with huge disenfranchised populations that will not be very friendly in the long term.

I doubt this will happen. The women on richer countries would put a very strong pressure against this.

There's a sliding scale from mail order brides all the way down to women slightly lower class than the male with something in the middle like travelling to a poor country to meet girls. The third thing is definitely effective and on the rise (and incels are obsessed with it).

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#345

Post by MRD85 » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 11:17 AM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #262

arvinsim wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is definitely on the "not ugly but also not attractive" demographic, I have ditched dating apps completely. The focus on the visual to the exclusion of body language and personality chemistry just makes it a bad all around deal. From my experience, naturally meeting girls in the world is a much more pleasant experience.

Smart move in many ways. Think about it - what kind of person goes to quick hookup apps? The one that likes quick hookups. Which is great if you look exactly this and nothing more. Men and women (but frankly, women much more due to many reasons) who behave like this +-consistently, have practically always have some deep unresolved issues, usually from childhood they try (and fail) to compensate for with this behavior…

For my dating age range (28-33) and location, it seems most women I meet through Tinder are after a connection. This is heavily filtered through my selections though. It might also be the case that's the front they show while having tons of hooks up behind the scenes. It's just a really convenient way to meet people.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#346

Post by bencoder » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 11:17 AM UTC

krapp wrote: post #298

tachyonbeam wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internet and dating apps surely play a part. It's also become more acceptable to be non-monogamous. I lived in the bay area for a while and hung out among queer circles in San Francisco. It seemed like nearly everyone was polyamorous and uninterested in being in a monogamous relationship. So much that I felt kind of obligated to try the poly thing myself for a while if I was going to date. I am a little worried a…

>It also seems to me that if a sizeable chunk of young men end up feeling undesirable, unwanted, and frustrated, the consequences won't be pretty, we all lose. Those young men need to stop basing their self image on their own ego and sense of sexual entitlement. What we're seeing here, in my humble and uneducated opinion, is the end of a period in societal history where women served the role of sexual currency in a m…

> What bothers me about this conversation is that disastrous, society-shattering consequences are always mentioned if women keep choosing not to have sex with more men, but no one seems willing to suggest that men need to change the way they view sex, relationships and themselves.

I may have missed part of this conversation but I don't think there's a suggestion that women are doing something /wrong/ or that they need to be the ones to "fix" this problem. Although admittedly the framing kind of makes it look like this because it appears to be women's behaviour and attitudes that have changed over recent decades, rather than men's.

I agree with you; Since this is the way things are going, men need to find a way to change their expectations and entitlement and adapt. Unfortunately discussions around this often get over-run with misogyny and bitterness (MGTOW/red-pill) and it's remarkably hard to find safe spaces for men to talk openly about their issues while keeping out that subset of men. (shout out to /r/menslib)

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#347

Post by hobofan » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 11:24 AM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #159

ianai wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re both onto something. There’s even a likely network effect where those men who sleep around are even more attractive to potential mates. Not as a rule, of course, but as a contributing factor. It’s a very destabilizing trend. Not only are these same men being economically disadvantaged, but they’re being socially isolated. Perfect way to increase violent tendencies, drug addition, and so on.

How would that change though. I agree its a problem, but I don't agree its not within the control of those who are not being matched to do something about it. Some arguments: * dating apps aren't the only way to meet people; you can still meet potential partners at parks/bars/work (Americans love office romances apparantly) * dating apps do favor the conventionally good looking folks but its also about presentation,…

hookup != dating and hookup app != dating app

I wouldn't put to much blame on dating apps in general, as the whole category of "dating apps" has become rather large and differentiated. And the more differentiated it becomes, the more I see it reflecting existing social behaviour.

On Tinder a small number of attracive men gets to hook up. But hasn't that always been the case when the objective has been to "hook up"? When you pick someone up for the night at you local bar and have rather free choice, hasn't the choice always rather fallen on the hot guy?

But there is a whole world of other dating services outside of Tinder, that are not focused on hook ups, but rather on finding a partner, and the difference shows!

My a piece of anecdotal evidence:

On Tinder I got ~0 matches - I'd say I'm "average" looking, not "hot" enough for Tinder - but on Bumble I get regular good matches. In contrast one of my "hot" friends has no problems getting matches on Tinder, but when he tried out Bumble his number of matches were just slightly more than mine.

I still prefer dating without apps, and the overreliance on them in my youngish (~25) age group is worrying me a bit, but the world for non-hot men is not as bleak as it's often made out to be.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#348

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 11:24 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #316

raxxorrax wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this problem will be addressed more and more by mail order brides or something like that for males in more prosperous nations, at least at the point when more men realize that they need to capitalize on their economic situation. The poorer countries are left with huge disenfranchised populations that will not be very friendly in the long term.

Dating a dude that is cool with buying a bride would be profoundly bad idea. His ideas on what he expects from relationship are such that you really really don't want to with him.

I agree to an extend. It is an indecent proposal. You are leveraging your economic position for the dating market, plain and simple.

But from the position of a guy that has few or none experience in dating, this might not be a bad choice.

Especially, as you mentioned, because it is very true that relationships are about expectations and managing those. And starting a relationship with someone who has basically always been in a relationship is very difficult for someone that was not.

Especially if the plan changed that you suddenly want to have a "serious" relationship. That is not very realistic and for the guy it doesn't really make a difference emotionally at this point.

The woman looking for greener pastures actually do have quite high expectations for economic safety, but that would make it more manageable for some guys at least.

And there is still opportunity for love here, and guys having problems with dating should know their options. Everything is allowed in love, right?

Disclaimer: I only ever at least partially defend the use of mail order brides on mondays. damn...

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#349

Post by fre3k » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 11:26 AM UTC

zimablue wrote: post #338

If you accept the premises: free information leads to higher female promiscuity aimed at top % males Lower % males will always be aware of this At some point this leads to increased violence and conflict There's no way to put any of this back into the bottle (how can you enforce cultural (or even enforced) monogamy given free information and anonymous encounters? It's harder than trying to prevent people doing drugs,…

That last sentiment is very prominent in the incel/red pill "communities". They have some inside-baseball names for it, but essentially they do express their extreme disdain for women who have sex with lots of men then decide to "settle down" with a provider.

Re: Explaining Sex Rate Changes

#350

Post by PedroBatista » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 11:27 AM UTC

maxkwallace wrote: post #301

freyir wrote: post #26

As the article points out, fewer young men are having sex, but roughly the same number of young women are having sex. I wonder if dating apps (Tinder, Bumble, etc.) are leading women to have sex with a smaller cohort of desirable men. Years ago, OkCupid noted that a small percentage of men get an overwhelming percentage of messages from women. With the rise of "swipe right, swipe left" mobile dating apps, where peopl…

"swipe right, swipe left" acts as a filter but it's not how people choose partners. People choose partners based on chatting after the swipe and the overall impression/feeling they have when meeting in-person. The belief that the majority of women on the dating market choose partners primarily based on looks and status is a fiction that's part of a broader narrative insecure men tell themselves to help rationalize th…

I understand what you're trying to say, but Tinder disagrees.

Also, in your efforts to combat generalizations "against" women you did the same about men without skipping a beat.