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Women: Learn to Program This Summer

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341–350 of 606 posts

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#342
post #246

Anyone who argues that there should be "More women in tech" needs to go visit a medical college. Completely filled with super smart women interested in science. If STEM women found Coding as interesting as they did Medicine (which is arguably more competitive and prestigious), we wouldn't have any shortage of women writing code. There is nothing wrong with either way, just let people do what they like to do.

And you don't hear men asking for more men in nursing school! Or you don't hear women asking for equal number of women in mining or oil field work ,despite being well paid.

A lot of posturing with no intellectual rigor or honesty.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#343
post #336
post #333

Ask yourself, would it be proper an action titled: Men: Learn Medicine this summer or Men: Learn Psychology this summer? All I am asking is for coherence, one way or another.

They have those, and this is a point that is repeatedly made, and debunked, on HN.

It's interesting, all top results in Google for "affirmative action in medicine" are about ethnicity, not gender [1] (same for psychology), can you point me to the source where it's something normal for men as well?

[1] https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=affirmative+action+in+...

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#344

I recently completed a very difficult job search where I unfortunately had to lean on my ethnicity (I’m Mexican) to pass through very overt screening against white men. I was shocked to hear from multiple companies, large and small, that they did not want men and white men in particular. Now we see a YC co-founder giving 40 women $9000 to learn to program. Where does it end? I was really sad that while I personally c…

I don't live in USA but a couple of years back I was working for a large financial organization in my country and was flat out told don't even think you are getting promoted because we need to lift our diversity so no white men will be promoted.

I left not too long after that.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it fair to claim equal opportunity when you give more opportunities to other people? Googles careers page advertises that they're both in equal opportunity employer and an affirmative action employer: > Google is proud to be an equal opportunity workplace and is an affirmative action employer. https://careers.google.com/teams/?&src=Online/House%20Ads/BK... So I guess the answer is yes.

That's so strange to me, how do you define equal opportunity when you directly affect that opportunity based on third party factors out of someones control.

I believe oxymoron is what its called.

[a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction]

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#346
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my personal experience and what I can guess about hackers I've talked to for instance on IRC, that's how most guys learned it : the web is full of resources for whoever wants to learn. I would love to learn to code. It's the reason I originally joined HN closing in on a decade ago. (Proof: my first post, the day I joined: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=713015 ) But I have found that one barrier to me getti…

What are your thoughts on this post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16465762 Posted by a user with a female name & received substantial feedback.

Your question is a "gotcha" question. It's dismissive and acts like the occasional exception proves the problem doesn't exist. It's also unrelated to the things I'm complaining about.

But here are a few observations about that post:

The HN account in question has under 300 karma. There are three posts, all about the book this person is writing. All comments by the account are in replies to those posts. The account has made zero effort to participate generally in discussion here.

She's not trying to network. She's developing a single project and getting public feedback.

Here are a few other observations for you:

Between my original handle and this one, I have more than 40K karma. My previous handle was briefly on the leaderboard. I appear to be the only woman to have ever spent time on the leaderboard.

I've just looked. I think I can confidently determine the full names of twelve of the top fifteen members of the HN leaderboard quite readily, with minimal effort. Many of them use their name or some portion of it as their handle or some portion of it. (First name, last initial; first initial, last name; etc.)

Yet I am routinely told that I should hide my gender online to avoid problems.

Here is a post I made in January that I wrote and self-posted. It got substantial karma and substantial comments and 60K+ page views total (about 55k the first couple of days):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18842009

It got one and exactly one private email from someone potentially professionally meaningful to me. I replied to that email. They did not reply to my reply. So I don't know how useful that is for networking purposes.

It made zero money, though it had a Patreon link and a PayPal link at the time. I spent about two weeks developing that piece.

People on HN use adblockers more aggressively than normal and ads generally are doing pretty poorly these days. All of HN expects quality writing on the front page, all day, every day. They decry pay walls and will post workarounds for pay walls.

Regular journalism sites are struggling and dying. They can't figure out how to pay their bills.

HN generally trends towards well-heeled male programmers, lawyers and other respected professionals. Yet they don't want to support writers. I am routinely told "get a real job" by people here.

There is no method by which the HN audience is willing to pay for content. Not by patronage, not by subscriptions, not by tip jars and certainly not by ads. The expectation that people post good content and make it freely available to the general public kind of worked when you could make money via ads. But ad payments have dropped across the board by 75 percent or more online for most sites that I know of.

I mean, I could just go on and on, but it's pointless because you aren't here to understand the problem space. You are here to post a single link as a "gotcha" that proves in your mind that there is no sexism on HN.

If there is no sexism on HN, why do I appear to be the only openly female member to have ever spent time on the leaderboard of 100 names?

(Please note that a lot more than 100 people have spent time on it. As far as I can tell, that means that not even 1 percent of the members who have spent time there post as openly female. Please note the qualifier there of openly female. I am aware that it is possible that someone has made the leaderboard while hiding the fact that they are female.)

Anyway, this argument is incredibly tiresome and I think I need to try to go do other things. More people piling on to try to somehow dismiss me is not some kind of good faith engagement by any stretch of the imagination.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#347

Some of the comments in this thread is a master class of how discrimination and gatekeeping work not just in our industry but in society as a whole. How can we simultaneously be an industry built on free an open source software and yet try to put up walls around our industry when efforts are made to make it more accessible to others? The barriers to programming are being lowered and this is an excellent thing. More d…

This, I feel, is a disingenuous summary of the concerns with explicitly discriminatory policies voiced in the comments here. The issue is not that people don't want to make coding more accessible. The issue most serm to be taking is that many places are pursuing diversity by deliberately making it less accessible for undesireable demographics. See my company's policies for one example: https://news.ycombinator.com/it…

So true. It is also embarrassing for many women in tech. I don't want anyone to look at me and feel threatened but I know sometimes people do feel that way.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#348
post #251
post #246

Anyone who argues that there should be "More women in tech" needs to go visit a medical college. Completely filled with super smart women interested in science. If STEM women found Coding as interesting as they did Medicine (which is arguably more competitive and prestigious), we wouldn't have any shortage of women writing code. There is nothing wrong with either way, just let people do what they like to do.

What's the evidence that women aren't coding because they aren't "interested"? If you want to make that argument, don't you need to go and refute all the anecdotal evidence that women aren't entering tech careers because they don't feel welcome? I cite as evidence the fact that women in med schools have not, in fact, always been well represented and that the same kind of rhetoric about their "interests" was used to e…

Most people get interested in computers early on in life, when there is nothing at all stopping them. You can’t blame society that many more 12 year old boys than 12 year old girls are obsessed with computers.

It is a fact that even at birth, girls are more interested in people where boys are more interested in things. This is even true for newborn chimpanzees. You can’t really blame society for this.

Surely this is a more plausible explanation why there are more women in medicine than in programming?

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#349
post #246

Anyone who argues that there should be "More women in tech" needs to go visit a medical college. Completely filled with super smart women interested in science. If STEM women found Coding as interesting as they did Medicine (which is arguably more competitive and prestigious), we wouldn't have any shortage of women writing code. There is nothing wrong with either way, just let people do what they like to do.

That may be how it is now in medical colleges but it was a long road in getting there, starting with being allowed to even attend medical school in the first place, and some would say we're still on it. It didn't just go from 0 to where it is now overnight.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the person you're responding to here is trying to point out that the article is disingenuous and so only can generate the same. I don't agree/disagree. just clarifying.

What about the article is disingenuous? It doesn't even seem to be making any arguments.

Seriously. It's 100% factual. "I'm ponying up money for so-and-so program. Here are the qualifications and stipulations."

It's only disingenuous if she's lying about these things and actually not doing this, which seems like an absurd accusation.

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