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My Chromecast Ultra would not start until I began answering 8.8.8.8

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Re: My Chromecast Ultra would not start until I began answering 8.8.8.8

#341

Post by Rapzid »

JohnFen wrote: post #276
Rapzid wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consumer of the DNS is the Chromecast. Its preference is 8.8.8.8 .

Chromcasts are sentient now? Wow, that should be the headline!

I'm clearly meaning the choices made by the Chromecast via the product and service owners and creators. The thing is a consumer IoT device with a lot of blackbox going on. It's consuming the DNS service to provide another service to the end user. How that happens is trivia to most people.

I think it's fine to want that configurable and maybe, maybe even expect or ask for it.. But I believe concocting conspiracy and assigning malicious intent so readily, as many are, displays either an ignorance of how products get built for the mass market or a feigning of such. As others who have worked on IoT devices have pointed out, there are rather valid user experience concerns behind baking these "preferences" into the products.

Re: My Chromecast Ultra would not start until I began answering 8.8.8.8

#342

Post by kllrnohj »

Topgamer7 wrote: post #253
toast0 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not unreasonable to attempt to use DHCP provided DNS servers. It's not unreasonable to use fallback DNS servers when the DHCP provided servers don't work. It would be a bit strange, but maybe not altogether unreasonable to run a fully recursive DNS client with root.hints and what not. I guess you could argue over reasonableness of favoring the fallback DNS over DHCP. It's not reasonable to ignore DHCP when the f…

I think the difference is that the chromecast would not function without 8.8.8.8. Thus requiring you use googles services to use a google product. That is not cool.

Cast itself requires you to use googles services to use the product. It bounces off of Google's servers for app & stream setup, along with authentication.

So does it really matter if it uses 8.8.8.8 to resolve the connection to google vs. some other DNS server? It's still going to connect to google's data center to do the singular function of the device.

And as the product itself is billed as an internet streaming appliance the cloud connection doesn't seem odd or surprising, either. It fits the functionality of the product.

Re: My Chromecast Ultra would not start until I began answering 8.8.8.8

#343

Post by gsich »

fixermark wrote: post #55
dastx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or is there a legitimate usecase for such behaviour? Yes, to track you better.

Or to speed up the Internet experience. https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/introducing-google-p...

Not on a Chromecast. And not with every DNS. And no time difference is shown in the blogpost.

Re: My Chromecast Ultra would not start until I began answering 8.8.8.8

#344

Post by kllrnohj »

calibas wrote: post #170

This should bother people here more than it does. The last thing the Internet needs is even more dependence upon Google. They've made it quite clear through their actions that they're not supporters of a free and open Internet: https://theintercept.com/2018/09/14/google-china-prototype-l... If people don't push back against these kinds of things, Google will continue to abuse their power. There shouldn't be an army o…

> The last thing the Internet needs is even more dependence upon Google.

This doesn't change that? It's a google streaming device that in order to function at all requires a connection to google's data centers.

Why does it matter if that connection happens via 8.8.8.8 or some other IP resolved by a different DNS server? What is the actual, practical difference of that? It's still connecting to Google in order to provide the singular feature of the device. And if you didn't want that, then don't buy the product? It's not exactly surprising that an internet streaming stick requires connecting to the product's cloud services, is it?

If they hardcoded some other google IP and it wasn't a DNS server at all, would that still bother you to the same degree? Would you still be ranting about a "free and open internet"? If not, then your objections in this case are probably misguided to say the least. Because this is really just an implementation detail of the Cast device connecting to the Cast servers. It doesn't change your privacy. It doesn't change the shape of the internet. It doesn't change anything significant. And if you really, desperately care for some reason you can route 8.8.8.8 wherever you want.

Otherwise by blocking 8.8.8.8 you're breaking the free & open nature of the internet. You've done the thing you're ranting against and censored the internet.

Re: My Chromecast Ultra would not start until I began answering 8.8.8.8

#345

Post by JohnFen »

Rapzid wrote: post #341
JohnFen wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chromcasts are sentient now? Wow, that should be the headline!

I'm clearly meaning the choices made by the Chromecast via the product and service owners and creators. The thing is a consumer IoT device with a lot of blackbox going on. It's consuming the DNS service to provide another service to the end user. How that happens is trivia to most people. I think it's fine to want that configurable and maybe , maybe even expect or ask for it.. But I believe concocting conspiracy and…

Obviously, I knew what you meant. You just expressed it in a humorous (and, I think, not entirely valid) way, granting agency to the device rather than people.

> As others who have worked on IoT devices have pointed out, there are rather valid user experience concerns behind baking these "preferences" into the products.

Which is something that I have not denied. What I assert is that there absolutely needs to be a way to change that behavior if users wish. The lack of that ability is, in my opinion, something that is harmful, both technically and socially.

Re: My Chromecast Ultra would not start until I began answering 8.8.8.8

#346

Post by mrweasel »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #317
mrweasel wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The extend to which modern appliances feel a need to be internet connected is getting ridicules. My TV isn't going to be internet connected, even if it's able to. It simply have no reason to. Smart TVs in particular should not be a thing. The TV manufactures have proven themself incapable of writing and maintaining software, so at this point they should accept defeat and just produce the TVs with enough HDMI connecti…

> My TV isn't going to be internet connected, even if it's able to. I admire your sentiment but recognize that on the current path that means at some point in the future this choice will mean "I don't have a TV." What is missed here, and alluded to in other comments, is that the costs for things are being subsidized by selling the digital exhaust they generate. Creating more exhaust means more margin, less (or even z…

Sadly I have to agree with you, that is the way we're heading. Short term, for TVs, I can just buy a large monitor and a sound bar, if I'm willing to pay more.

Your general concept for "digital exhaust" is good though. It's extremely clear in phones. I can either pay a for Apple and limit my exhaust, or I can get an Android phone and pay the difference with my data.

Re: My Chromecast Ultra would not start until I began answering 8.8.8.8

#347

Post by JohnFen »

pault wrote: post #312
JohnFen wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not unreasonable to use fallback DNS servers when the DHCP provided servers don't work. I don't know about "reasonable" or "unreasonable". I do know that there's no way I'd allow this in my network. My DHCP servers point to my own DNS server for a good reason, and I am completely invested in ensuring that nobody bypasses it to the best of my ability.

Can you route 8.8.8.8 to your DNS server?

Yes, you can. Can this device detect that you've done that and refuse to work anyway? That, I don't know.

Re: My Chromecast Ultra would not start until I began answering 8.8.8.8

#348

Post by ehsankia »

calibas wrote: post #170

This should bother people here more than it does. The last thing the Internet needs is even more dependence upon Google. They've made it quite clear through their actions that they're not supporters of a free and open Internet: https://theintercept.com/2018/09/14/google-china-prototype-l... If people don't push back against these kinds of things, Google will continue to abuse their power. There shouldn't be an army o…

I agree with most your points, but trying to make a connection between "exploration of bringing Google services to China" and "supporting free and open Internet" feels like a huge stretch to me.

Let's ignore the fact that every other tech company such as Microsoft and Apple are in China, and the fact that Google already does censor content in most other countries. Let's also ignore all the other things Google does for OSS and the web.

I'm just amazed at all the random places people manage to bring up and force their disagreement about Dragonfly into any discussion around Google.

Re: My Chromecast Ultra would not start until I began answering 8.8.8.8

#349

Post by ignoramous »

kllrnohj wrote: post #342
Topgamer7 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference is that the chromecast would not function without 8.8.8.8. Thus requiring you use googles services to use a google product. That is not cool.

Cast itself requires you to use googles services to use the product. It bounces off of Google's servers for app & stream setup, along with authentication. So does it really matter if it uses 8.8.8.8 to resolve the connection to google vs. some other DNS server? It's still going to connect to google's data center to do the singular function of the device. And as the product itself is billed as an internet streaming ap…

> So does it really matter if it uses 8.8.8.8 to resolve the connection to google vs. some other DNS server?

It might since there are DNS providers (OpenDNS, AdGuard) that help create blacklists or use one out of the box (family filters, privacy oriented filters, etc).

Also, not sure if true, but Google might be required to comply with local laws and 'block' websites through NXDomains.

Re: My Chromecast Ultra would not start until I began answering 8.8.8.8

#350

Post by vetinari »

pixl97 wrote: post #297
vetinari wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a machine joined into a domain (Active Directory, FreeIPA, others), it already has a custom CA certificate installed into its store. So this domain CA will just sign the certificate for the local DNS server, like it does for other local TLS services. If you don't, just make up a local CA and install the cert on your machines or devices. No need to drag letsencrypt and co into the game, that's only for pub…

Right, because your Chromecast will let you install your CA cert on it....

As it is, it won't, and it doesn't need to.

In the future, if it would need one to resolve domain names, I guess it won't get onto Internet without it, then. It was just around 30 euro anyway.

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