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Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

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Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#341

Post by mulmen »

mikeash wrote: post #321
mulmen wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the message is encrypted with some time component and a pre-shared secret then it is protected from a replay attack no?

Yes, but a replay attack is quite different from a relay attack.

Hm, good point. I guess I don't really know how these systems work. I assumed there was some kind of rotating value but I have no reason to believe this. Based on these attacks it seems the keys are really just sending the same signal every time. That appears to be a real shortcoming of the design.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#342

Post by wkearney99 »

sofaofthedamned wrote: post #100
mysterydip wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top Gear did a thing on this during their one road trip: https://youtu.be/-aU09WT5rXg fast forward to the 3 minute mark

Exactly. Luckily i've got a Kia which nobody wanted to steal, but it's definitely a well known attack vector. A car on one side got stolen, the other side 'just' had stuff stolen from it.

Wait until bad weather. I had an utterly clapped-out Jeep Cherokee stolen one cold-as-hell winter night. Sure enough, found two neighborhoods over... a fair walking distance from where the last late night bus would have dropped someone off. So, yeah, a stolen beater is just fine when it's freezing cold outside...

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#344

Post by Shivetya »

ryandrake wrote: post #78
wsh wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it’s a feature, so you don’t have to remove the key from a bag or pocket to enter or start the car. In typical designs, the car continually transmits a low-frequency (e.g., 135 kHz) radio signal to wake up any wireless keys within range. When a key receives this signal, it replies with a VHF (e.g., 315 MHz) signal, and the car unlocks or starts when a door is opened or the start button is pressed. The reply sign…

This is insane. Please tell me this is an option that non-insane consumers can get their car without. Fortunately I drive an old car so this does not affect me—yet. If I ever have to replace mine, this looks like yet-another-misfeature I’ll have to look out for to avoid.

my Tesla Model 3 works by my phone being in range or swiping a key card. I am not sure if they are up to spoofing this method yet

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#345

Post by bacon_waffle »

caf wrote: post #322
tyingq wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An timeout that goes into idle mode until it detects some movement, would be less hassle. It still leaves a small window of opportunity for abuse, but seems like a decent middle ground.

Yes, a MEMS accelerometer would be a very cheap mitigation.

Assuming you could do that without killing the battery, then it wouldn't provide a benefit for people like me who keep their keys in their pocket.

My personal solution is to not drive often, and when I do it's a 1996 Subaru. ;)

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#346

Post by mikeash »

mulmen wrote: post #341
mikeash wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but a replay attack is quite different from a relay attack.

Hm, good point. I guess I don't really know how these systems work. I assumed there was some kind of rotating value but I have no reason to believe this. Based on these attacks it seems the keys are really just sending the same signal every time. That appears to be a real shortcoming of the design.

The modern ones send a unique value each time, so capturing the transmission and playing it back is useless. But that doesn’t save you from an attacker that just amplifies the signal and otherwise lets the two ends communicate normally.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#347

Post by reassembled »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #327
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does she unlock her front door?

> How does she unlock her front door? For many people, there's no need to unlock the front door because it's never locked. Having to lock your door just means you're living in a terrible neighborhood.

Even if you live in a "good"neighborhood you could still be burgled by someone casing the neighborhood/home. Do people really not lock their houses when they leave? My parents always taught us to lock the house on the way out, even when we lived out in the country.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#348

Post by reassembled »

Swizec wrote: post #260
nkrisc wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I was making a joke, but I was also semi-serious. I personally wouldn't mind that the car unlocks based on the fob's proximity, but requires insertion of the key for ignition. I currently drive a 2009 car with the usual key fob and my biggest issue with it is not having to insert it to start the car, but unlocking the doors while my hands are full. Once I'm seated in the driver's seat I'm not carrying anything a…

My problem with modern cars is that there’s no good place to put the keys. They’re uncomfy in my pocket when sitting down and I’m too warm for a jacket with pockets. The old ignition hole was the perfect solution. You had a dedicated spot for your keys, you always knew where they are, were unlikely to forget them in the car, and it also happened to start your engine. Perfect

In the movies they always leave a key behind the visor.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#349

Post by [deleted] »

burtonator wrote: post #296
jamescostian wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if this is a joke about old keys being better, but I'd argue you could have the benefits of new keys and old keys combined if you just made it so that new keys have to be inserted into some compartment inside of cars, where they are authenticated by those cars. You can imagine a fob with a USB that has a different authentication code than the wireless one it sends out, and unless the USB is plugged into…

I'm not sure why we can't have some sort of challenge response protocol to prevent MITM...

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