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NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

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Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, NYC doesn't have a housing crisis. Rents are certainly higher in NYC than the average for the nation, but there are plenty of relatively affordable areas within an hour's commute of downtown, and the only transportation cost you'd pay is $116.50/month for a MetroCard. Subtract out all the substantial costs of paying for an automobile and NYC can even compare favorably in cost of living to some other cities that h…

Just a note from someone who moved from NYC to a suburban area a few years ago: a car doesn't cost that much (as I thought anyway). Outside of the fixed costs, insurance is about $70 a month, and gas at $60 a month, so that's about $130 in total a month, just a bit over the $116 in unlimited train rides in NYC. (And yes the fixed costs are much higher, I will admit.)

You're forgetting the actual cost of the car itself, plus maintenance. The average monthly auto payment in the US is sitting aroudn $500. If you buy the car up front with cash, then you need to count the opportunity cost of that money over time, and depreciation.

And then there's also registration, emissions testing, annual inspection, and other miscellaneous fees that vary by jurisdiction, but that can easily cost hundreds per year in total.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the reason you buy things on Amazon is because they get you the best deal and they get you the best deal because they get the best deals. They get the best deal by exploiting workers in American warehouses, exploiting workers in Chinese factories or exploiting the citizens of New York. Either way, exploitation gets you that deal. Those guys who aren’t as effective at exploitation as Amazon? Well, you don’t sh…

My issue is not with Amazon. This is about the game, not the player. Though now I'm misquoting Ice T too...

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Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#343
post #301
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please tell me what about this is bad. A trillion dollar company is getting subsidies, when they should be helping to build and grow the society that created them. Healthcare in America is disgraceful. Absolutely the worst in the developed world. Tens of millions of people in your country live on food stamps. Tens of millions work multiple jobs and are still considered "in poverty". Higher education is so expensive…

Most of your screed about how US sucks has nothing to do with Amazon or why Amazon deal is bad. > When a trillion dollar company gets to pay less that they're supposed to, it makes society worse, not better. That's where you went wrong. A trillion dollar company is not supposed to pay anything to New York. The minimum NY was getting is $0. That's the starting point. Amazon is free to locate HQ in any other place and…

But isn't this the very definition of fascism? Industry and government scheming together at the cost of the little guy?

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#344
post #212
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a cost though it's tax break over 10 years and there would be no tax revenue if NYC didn't get the office in the first place.

How do you know other companies wouldn't move in?

Did I ever claim others would not move in?

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#346
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [That] post just described, by definition, a race to the bottom. I agree, though in this context we tend to term that "competition". In this case we are watching competition between states and localities to improve themselves and their tax bases. This strikes at the heart of how interstate commerce works and what the rights of the States are. Sections of the country competing with one another and taking various app…

> I agree, though in this context we tend to term that "competition". And I'm really happy when there is competition between Apple and one of their suppliers. What is really sick about what you're talking about, is that it's competition between trillion-dollar Amazon and regular ordinary tax payers. When Amazon get the upper hand, they get more money, while the tax payers get crappier schools and government programs.…

If NY is losing money on this, then what you're saying is correct. If they're making money, then the taxpayers of NY are coming out positively. The tax break doesn't exist on its own: 10% of $1 versus 1% of $1000, and the latter is obviously the better deal.

As GP stated, the alternative is that NY doesn't get Amazon's HQ, and gets 0% of $0.

>You are literally talking about a corporation taking ('negotiating') bread from hungry people like it's a good thing.

If you're going to make such an argument, you might as well claim that they should pay 99% in tax, because any lower a tax rate would be "taking bread from hungry people". Of course, this would be stupid: you'd make more money in year 1, the business would go under, and you're now making squat, and all the poor folks go hungry once more (plus the additional of everyone who just got fired). The percentage is not what matters here.

You could argue instead that the overall country is worse off, but the US is a one that encourages state-level competition, and thats how it goes (ideally, states should be efficient with their limited funds, and taxes should be as low as possible to support their various infrastructures; state-competition encourages this, in the same fashion as any other part of the US economy).

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you measure progress? For the past decade, we've severely deteriorated as a society - Yet politicians will call it progress. Citation? By most metrics we've improved as a society in the last 10 years.

Not all of us see wage stagnation, growing inequity, debt accumulation as an improvement.

Crime is mostly down; base wages have stagnated yes, but real total compensation has been steadily increasing. Hundreds of thousands of people rise out of poverty every day. Inequality has grown, though, which is probably bad. Debt accumulation is not necessarily bad.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Richard Wolff in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTth4Rb25H4 does a good job of concisely making the points on just how bad a deal this is for New York and Virginia (which are together funding over half of the costs of this project -- $5.5B versus Amazon's $5B according to the New York Times) -- and all for an estimated 2,500 jobs in New York. Here's what he said: This is a shocking display. What they are calling a g…

Isn’t the projected number of jobs 25,000?

It's tough for me to say because I've read multiple estimates and they vary by a factor of 10. Amazon's promises https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/amazon-selects-new... are one thing, what actually happens as the deal is approved and implemented is another.

I don't take Amazon's numbers seriously until they show that they will live up to their own hype. If Wisconsin's Scott Walker was elected on making 250,000 new jobs in 2010 he has fallen far short of that. One of his job-creating deals was Foxconn, something he used to tout heavily but tried to shy away from when he last ran. Foxconn's 13,000 (I'm assuming human) job figure for Wisconsin hasn't been met. I'll believe it when I see it but I still don't see how New York is getting a fair deal in this; it seems like they have no problem attracting businesses to their city and don't need to give nearly as much as they are.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was around that time; I no longer remember what name they were carrying at what points during that process. They subsequently acquired the remains of AT&T; a few other things, and the name with which they subsequently rebranded themselves. My point was more the "money for nothing" aspect; I merely don't remember off the cuff what exact name/branding they had at that point in time. Ameritech got bought out by ("mer…

I ask because I can't find anything about the "money for nothing" aspect. From the contemporaneous news articles, I see there was a lawsuit with Illinois over merger conditions. Governments don't typically give "money for nothing" for a merger in a regulated industry--regulatory bodies basically have veto authority over the merger (they can blow the whole thing up by denying transfer of various licenses) and use that…

No, this wasn't with regard to merger approval, as far as I recall. This was a separate negotiation: State level tax breaks and other concessions, in return for the commitment to deploy "universal" high-speed Internet access throughout Illinois via their network, where "universal" was something in excess of 95% of the population with exclusions only for exceptional circumstances, e.g. extreme isolation. I seem to recall a percentage deployment they agreed to reach, over 95%, with discussion if not language about what might constitute the demographics of that bit that they would be allowed to fail to cover. "High-speed" was some not-too-aggressive throughput level commensurate with speeds in those days.

"Money for nothing" was my quip, regarding the company's apparent attitude. The company agreed to it all, then started lobbying to get out of their commitments under the deal -- while not giving up the tax breaks and other concessions they'd gained by making said commitments. The agreement bound them to do these things; they turned around and lobbied the Illinois legislature to "unbind" them, while leaving the rest in place.

Anecdotally, even in Chicagoland, they continued to drag their feet until the cable TV companies starting deploying wholesale. Depending on location, this often was some years later. Then, suddenly. the now-AT&T would get serious about their own deployment. Well, kind of serious: Technically, it often still sucked, by comparison.

This is, in my view, analogous to the failures of big ISP's, in various states, until they face competition, for instance by communities finally just rolling their own municipal and/or cooperative broadband. Then, these big ISP's go to the legislature of whatever state and cry (i.e. lobby), "Unfair competition!"

One has to keep telling these stories, so that maybe voters will pay enough attention to their state politics to vote out their elected officials who participate in these giveaways, that someone at sometime conveniently nicknamed "corporate welfare".

Maybe even vote in and support a state attorney general willing to initiate investigations and, where evidence of corruption can be found, send a few of those officials to jail.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you buy things on Amazon?

Would it be fair to ask coal miners in the early 20th century if they shop at the company store? Large retail companies are ubiquitous in our society. It takes a certain degree of socioeconomic privilege to be able to choose not to buy things from them.

what a horrible excuse. there are plenty of other options to shop at than amazon, in fact you have to go out of your way and wait for your items to buy from amazon. the assertion that one has to be privileged to not buy from amazon is also silly, how many lower status people do you see shopping at amazon. capitalism fails when people don’t exercise their choices and hiding behind excuses like this is why people run around saying capitalism doesn’t work
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