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A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

nytimes.com

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Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#341

Post by huehehue »

jbattle wrote: post #287
rchaud wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My generation grew up with TV shows like The Transformers that got kids to beg their parents for toys. But the addiction component wasn't built-in the way it is now. Everyone remembers "Saturday morning cartoons with cereal" because there was a set time and place for that event. After the episode ended, it didn't auto-play the next episode, or recommend 5 highly similar shows based on your "viewing history". Consid…

I dunno, I remember losing HOURS sitting in front of a TV. Watching whatever. Whatever they wanted to show me, I'd watch it. Commercials every X minutes.

There have always been TV fanatics, or enthusiasts, sure. I vegged out a lot as a kid. As tech has changed, though, the game is totally different, and people are being actively coerced into binge-watching.

Yesterday, we had Nielsen doing rough tracking of viewership (IIRC, installing a Nielsen box was/is totally optional!), opinion polls, and focus groups. Mostly aggregate data on a program's performance.

Today, we're building elaborate user profiles and tailoring the viewing experience to the individual, using who-knows-what details (demographics, personal viewing habits, Amazon purchase history, eye-tracking data from your smart TV, you get the idea). These companies have a really good idea of what you like, and will use whatever data they can to maximize the time you spend on their platform.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#342

Post by addicted »

wutbrodo wrote: post #296
jjeaff wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't control your dopamine uptake, but you can certainly control your actions. Especially when you recognize what is happening. If I see myself spending too much time on my phone, for instance, I'll put it away for a while.

Right, I'm not fully convinced either way, but it seems to me that if you're capable of understanding the arguments against something, you're capable of starting to take steps against it. This doesn't mean simply wishing an iron willpower on yourself, but one thing that worked wonders for me is modifying my environment to put barriers between me and bad things. I come from a family with a history of addiction and men…

This is not sufficient. I know that eating out every day isn't as good for me as cooking at home would probably be, but the benefits still outweigh the downsides for me, so I eat out more often than I cook at home. No one is gonna hold that against me.

All these algorithms need to convince someone who is aware of their downsides is that the upsides are worth it. Instagram needs to convince someone that, sure Instagram isn't good for their mental health, but staying off Instagram means they will have less friends which will be worse for them. This will almost certainly work for a teenager. Other stuff may work for an adult.

And with the way social networks work, something like this can simply become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#343

Post by Pfhreak »

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #187
medobs41 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why AREN'T certain games subject to the same regulations as slot machines? I can answer for the US: Games aren’t subject to regulation because for the past few decades one party has made it their goal to destroy regulatory power to allow the wealthy to enrich themselves. One party in the US has been completely captured by billionaires and corporations. This started in the 1970s around the time the Koches founded the…

Translation: "But muh 1% and racism. Reeeeeeeee." Both parties are heavily influenced by and for the rich. But only one party is obsessed with identity politics, and it's not the one you're implying. Your side has far more to lose than the side of Fox News and Limbaugh if the fairness doctrine were to return. Because for every one of them, there are 10 media sources slanted in the other direction.

Your "translation" is clearly out of tone for Hacker News.

Both sides play identity politics, they just focus on different identities. Most people are blind to the identity politics of their own party because those identities feel natural or correct to them, making the identities less obviously visible. (Or, inversely, the identities of the 'other' party feel obviously wrong, making them more jarring and stand out as 'playing identity politics'.)

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#344

Post by balabaster »

Tehchops wrote: post #30

I think it's less about the screen time, and more about what's on the screen. Echoing some of the existing comments: Games and sites today are vastly different than they were 20 years ago. Games like Civilization, Quake, Diablo, C&C, Mortal Kombat, Tony Hawk etc... were definitely addictive. But modern games like Fortnite and Clash of Clans are not engineered the same way. They are specifically designed to function l…

"I just wanna spend $20 on my skins for Fortnite"

Right... the game is designed to hook you in, that's games, they've all done that since the year dot. You're invested. Except now, in order to continue getting the same high, you need to spend money. They're purposely engineered this way. Just like drugs.

I grew up as the public internet took it's first breaths. When you had to figure out just how to get an internet service provider before you could even get started. In the era of IRC and Newsgroups and that was about all. Nobody even understood what websites were.

Google didn't hit its stride until 3 or 4 years after I started using it. Things were different back then.

These days everything is designed to hook you and keep you coming back and when those hooks are no longer enough to keep your eyes on it, it hooks you to pay something to get more of a high.

My kids have just come off a two week iPad ban yesterday, and already one of them has fallen off the rails and was unable to get out of bed for school this morning. Their behaviour was significantly improved by the time they came off their ban than it was the day the were banned.

I'm seriously considering removing iPad use on a more permanent basis.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#345

Post by samat »

wlesieutre wrote: post #180
ghostly_s wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the evidence for your argument that Apple is "optimizing the addictive parts"? Your argument seems to be entirely based on screen size; is there some study that demonstrates a correlation between screen size and 'addictive' qualities?

It's more the 3rd software companies that are optimizing the addictive parts than Apple, because that's how they make money. Having the screen be smaller makes those software products suck enough that I don't like using them for extended periods, it's a defense mechanism against hyper optimized advertising engagement apps. Personally I think that's a feature. My other problem with Apple that they're only interested i…

Actually, iPhone SE is still good. Supports the latests iOS and runs quite smoothly.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#346

Post by pokemongoaway »

Tehchops wrote: post #30

I think it's less about the screen time, and more about what's on the screen. Echoing some of the existing comments: Games and sites today are vastly different than they were 20 years ago. Games like Civilization, Quake, Diablo, C&C, Mortal Kombat, Tony Hawk etc... were definitely addictive. But modern games like Fortnite and Clash of Clans are not engineered the same way. They are specifically designed to function l…

Haha! You're arguing old games bad new games good?! Is that not NPC behavior worse than the NPCs of Quake? I think those old school games had more depth, but I'm guilty of having not played any new ones for more than a minute or so.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#347

Post by fhood »

bluntfang wrote: post #243
themagician wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, playing Dark Souls requires more brain power than the vast majority of most peoples’ jobs. If my kid was good at Dark Souls I’d be impressed. Hell, if I was good at Dark Souls I’d be impressed with myself.

dark souls is basic pattern recognition and hand eye coordination at best.

Exactly!!!!

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#348

Post by pokemongoaway »

mindslight wrote: post #205

Calling it "screen time" is missing the elephant in the room. The largest part of the problem is that the software we're directly interacting with has been designed by companies with interests directly contrary to ours! Social interaction will inherently set off more chemical rewards, but it is the tuning of the feedback loop (optimizing for micro-interactions) that keeps us glued. Emacs/mutt/libreoffice/python/kodi…

I don't totally agree about the evil company idea, but it is totally true that useful programs like vim or editors could be reimagined for better throughput!

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#349

Post by SN76477 »

danesparza wrote: post #60
kartan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are specifically designed to function like a slot machine. I work in the gambling industry, making literally slot machines. Slot machines are heavily regulated and there is a lot of "engagement" tricks that can not be used in the gambling industry. The kind of trick that Candy Crush will use. The dangerous side of gambling is for people that think that they can "win money". But the games themselves are kind of…

You've gotten me wondering: Why AREN'T certain games subject to the same regulations as slot machines? Is that a state-by-state regulation? A federal regulation? And does the regulating code specifically mention physical machines? Thanks in advance for satisfying my curiosity.

Great idea!

If a game has micro transactions, then treat it as gambling.

Problem solved.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#350

Post by wott »

mindslight wrote: post #256
pesfandiar wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One good way to distinguish the two is whether or not it's pure consumption/entertainment or production/learning? I realize at times it may not be easy to do (e.g. watching cartoons or playing games that teach children something).

I mentioned kodi for a reason. I've definitely binged on seasons of shows using kodi (or mplayer), but it feels relatively deliberate. I don't support Netflix et al, so I don't know specifically how many dark patterns they've implemented to "increase engagement" or w/e, but I do know the setup is there. And obviously if you're using Youtube for "TV time", then game over.

The dark pattern is series themselves.

1. They are massively produced and have replaced many other programs. There is always new content available, you can spend your life watching 3 new episodes an evening.

2. They are in fact not series any more, but serials. Each episode of a series has an independent storyline and comes to a conclusion; episodes can mostly be watched in random order, you can miss a broadcast, it doesn't matter, you can watch a later episodes without any problem. Serials are a single long storyline split in episodes: you can't miss one, let alone two episodes, otherwise you're lost; and they can use cliffhangers! and of course they do. The hooking is much much bigger for serials than for series, you always end up begging for more.

Even when it starts as a series, they quickly inject enough serials elements to turn it into a serial in disguise.

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