The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#341

Post by xapata » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

someguydave wrote: post #338

xapata wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that was the evidence provided by the great outsourcing experiment of 1996-2006. Turns out programming can't easily be turned into a low-skill job.

I agree. So why have so many programmers in Silicon Valley? Why don’t they leave and demand independent contracts? Perhaps that kind of “unbundling” of technical talent is the future.

It's the problem of being paid enough. My wife asked me the same question recently, "Why don't programmers unionize?" They could demand more through collective action, but they don't feel the need.

Also, programmers are (often) worth more in teams. Two programmers who work well together are far more productive as a pair than the sum of what they'd do in isolation.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#342

Post by payne92 » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 3:01 PM UTC

enjo wrote: post #210

payne92 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...because the skill gap between “ok”, “good”, and “great” is so much bigger for some jobs (software development) than it is for other jobs (carpentry).

It's not tho. It's really not. Most of the software you use every day was developed by very average software developers. The vast majority of the work software developers do isn't terribly novel or particularly difficult. And you know what? They do just fine. Things work well. Systems stay on line. Companies make money. I've seen too many "bad" teams produce perfectly functional software over the years to think that…

I respectfully disagree, having worked in both software and carpentry.

While I do feel that folks grossly underestimate the skills that the best carpenters acquire over time, the software ecosystem generally is unique is that it's vastly large and complex. By any measure (switch points, surface area, person-years, etc.), the software we've all built in the past 70-ish years is the most complex thing ever implemented by human-kind.

Long ago it became far too large for any one person to "master" to the same degree an excellent carpenter might master his or her skills.

And the market agrees with the point of view, and values the economic output of the "best" software developers (at scale, not just one data point) at a far greater multiple over the "ok" ones, relative to other skills and trades.

One may not like this analysis (and my associated statement), but it is the state of the world.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#343

Post by Jach » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 3:14 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #265

Jach wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every HN salary thread, you come out of the woodwork with the same rhetoric. See: https://twitter.com/danluu/status/986693536534982659?lang=en For the lazy: "Median comp package at FB is $240k/yr (this number is skewed low since it's over all employees, not just engineers). Google, Amazon, etc. pay similarly. Combined, these companies employ > 100k programmers in the U.S out of maybe 3M-ish programmers." Directly fol…

I’m addressing OP’s anxiety. These threads can leave the average tech employee thinking his average salary is hopelessly low, where, in reality they are reading top examples from people at outlier companies. It’s like comparing yourself to the highlight-reel best moments of your social media friends. EDIT: For what it’s worth, I’d like to point out you’re attacking me personally in your message, and not even addressi…

It's fine advice to not compare yourself to unreachable heights. My issue with your comment is that you characterize $300k/yr as an "outlier at outliers" number and it just isn't true. The salary numbers at Facebook (which you brought up as an explicit example) suggest it's very close to the median there, which knocks off "outlier at" easily. $300k/yr is entirely reachable without living in the bay area, without being a mythical unicorn who people only report sightings of based on 4th-hand accounts, and without driving a Porsche and having a supermodel SO.

To reiterate: $300k/yr is not an exaggeration. If you continue making the same sort of message in future threads relating to dev salary, I'd encourage you to up the number considerably or change your location frame to somewhere not in the US. You're right I was overly aggressive in my opening remark, I'm sorry for that.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#344

Post by diminoten » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

rusticpenn wrote: post #336

diminoten wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is night and day between a good dev and a bad dev. The key factor that you're probably not thinking about is time. A good dev doesn't think faster or have blazing fingers that fly across the keyboard, a good dev is constantly setting him/herself up to shave time off of future tasks, and those investments are constantly paying dividends. Those "bad" teams can definitely produce software that runs, but they d…

In my view, a good developer writes maintainable code. Easy to understand, easy to fix, no spaghetti.

Yes, but what's the point of maintainable code? Speed. Quickly understandable, quickly fixable, and quickly upgradable.

Time is the key. Writing maintainable code is the investment a good developer makes because it pays off by increasing speed of interacting with that code.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#345

Post by geebee » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 5:19 PM UTC

According to this article the highest paid worker in Silicon Valley, a product manager, earns $133k a year on average.

For comparison purposes, I suggest you take a look at US News Best Jobs, which contains a roundup of BLS data by region. Here's a sampling of some other salaries for the Silicon Valley area:

https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/rankings

The top paying market for software developers (the #1 job, apparently) is San Jose, at $133k a year median pay.

Physician Asst: $138k a year in Santa Rosa CA

Nurse Practitioner (#4): $158k/yr in San Francisco, CA

Registered nurse (#18): $138k/yr in San Francisco

Lawyer (#33): $193k/yr in San Jose (top market)

This is median, rather than average, and is a bit more recent than the $133k cited in the article. There are other factors of course, pay isn't the only thing that matters, stability, age discrimination, working environment, possibility of doing good. The median doesn't include the upper range for high talent (I think nursing salaries tend to be more compressed around the mean, whereas lawyer and programmers have longer tails).

But overall, the data doesn't really support the notion that programmers are especially well paid when compared to fields available to skilled and educated people, including in (perhaps especially in) Silicon Valley.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#346

Post by oneanddone » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 6:16 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #318

oneanddone wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have refused to go into management precisely to avoid what you are experiencing. My wages have somewhat stagnated because of this, and most of my working acquaintances have moved up, but they are miserable in comparison. Yes, they make more, in some cases much more, but after being in IT for over 20 years, I desire my "8-4 M-F no work nights/no work weekends" life more than I do a little extra coin. I go home and d…

You are only as safe as your boss permits you. Tomorrow he may leave/get fired/die; the person replacing him may not be as tolerant of your actions.

Be that as may be, I have a right to a life/work balance. My own father worked himself into an early grave at 60. I lived with his being chained to his job. I swore I would never do it.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#347

Post by doublescoop » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 7:28 PM UTC

NearAP wrote: post #131

pmiller2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this has some merit. I’ve seen ratios from 3:1 to 10:1 engineers to PMs at companies I’ve been at. I could imagine the ratio going even higher. Edit: this does raise the question, though: where do product managers come from? What does the career path of a PM look like, including what happens before they become PMs?

1) Straight from Business Schools - Folks who go into technology tend to become PMs after their MBAs 2) Internal transfers - Software Engineers switch to PM 3) Management/Technology Consultant -> PM: Folks switch from consulting (where they are implementing products designed by vendors) to becoming PMs in the vendor companies.

The internal transfers is much broader than just SWE to PM, as well. UX designers, technical writers, QA testers, etc. Anyone working on a dev team might start picking up PM responsibilities and make that transition at some point.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#348

Post by walshemj » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

rswail wrote: post #327

walshemj wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Tech is a "profession" and if you think we are you obviously haven't seen how other professions Architects for example and Journalists have a very high opinion of them selves.

Except that Tech isn't a profession. Professions have bodies that establish and enforce professional standards and appropriate evaluations and credentials. Programmers that call themselves "engineers" are fooling themselves. Unless they are doing the sort of programming that the NASA shuttle team used, none of us are "engineers".

In the UK The BCS and IEEE would beg to differ. And a profession is not just the piece of paper its about social standing and relative pay rates.

And anyone with a degree who works in there field is a "engineer" even though the number that go for full Chartered status is a small minority - and that is more about who you know not what you know.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#349

Post by deebeeoh » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

Pm is not unlike sales. It's a function with a strong value but which has metastasized because of compensation. Everyone knows the path to CEO and top compensation is ( roadly)through pm. Which means it attracts all sorts of people whose primary quality is that they want to come out on top. They don't make good PM's, they often don't have strong engineering or business backgrounds...and there are a ton of them. The ultimate downfall of the software industry will be from our over reliance on the army of mediocre PM's growing each day....

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#350

Post by walshemj » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 7:57 PM UTC

ionised wrote: post #333

walshemj wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Tech is a "profession" and if you think we are you obviously haven't seen how other professions Architects for example and Journalists have a very high opinion of them selves.

Software development is not one of the 'Professions', and never will be until it has a governing body and some degree of accountability for the shoddy work they can put out.

They do all countries have certifying bodies for engineers and admit it professionals.

I never bothered going that route as the BCS kept changing their minds on qualifying experience and the rules and actually don't do anything concreate for their members unlike say the BMA does for doctors.

So honest Q here if you feel so strongly why haven't you got your Ceng / E status