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IQ Matters Less Than You Think

nautil.us

341–347 of 347 posts

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#341
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not measuring; "intelligence". You're measuring someone's ability to perform well in a very contrived test. A test that no one could even take without a very specific education experience. So in that context, I'm sure the results are robust. But I don't think that means much

> You're not measuring; "intelligence". You're measuring someone's ability to perform well in a very contrived test. A test that no one could even take without a very specific education experience. You're not measuring; "mass". You're measuring an object's ability to attract other objects in a very contrived test. A test that no object would even undergo outside a very specific physics experiment.

The difference being that an object's "mass" has very broad implications for all the theories that incorporate the notion of an object's "mass", all of which have been tested to high precision. (In tests that range from being contrived to not at all.) You can't say this for "intelligence" in anywhere close to the same way.

But it seems more HNers are dead set on believing that there is a genetic factor that can make certain people more "superior" than others, to justify existing social hierarchy.

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#342

I started to write a much longer response but don't have time. My IQ was tested at 142 some decades ago and, from what I've read, would be higher cause the tests have changed. I was always very successful in my jobs but, when it came to starting my own business, I needed a lot of active encouragement or I would give up too quickly. However, in two cases, a business clicked with me, for some reason, which made me exci…

> My IQ, perhaps, helped me see things most did not but it's the enthusiasm that keeps me going You need a sufficiently high IQ to seek out and achieve the higher things, such as productive sources of enthusiasm. Those with lower IQ will be less inclined to figure out how to become self-actualized.

That is unsubstantiated speculation. "IQ" doesn't mean "anything that makes a person ideal".

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#343
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're not measuring; "intelligence". You're measuring someone's ability to perform well in a very contrived test. A test that no one could even take without a very specific education experience. You're not measuring; "mass". You're measuring an object's ability to attract other objects in a very contrived test. A test that no object would even undergo outside a very specific physics experiment.

The difference being that an object's "mass" has very broad implications for all the theories that incorporate the notion of an object's "mass", all of which have been tested to high precision. (In tests that range from being contrived to not at all.) You can't say this for "intelligence" in anywhere close to the same way. But it seems more HNers are dead set on believing that there is a genetic factor that can make…

Does it also bother you that tall people are statistically more successful basketball players? Or that wiry people are statistically better marathon runners? If no, then why does it bother you that intelligent people are statistically more successful in positions that require complex mental work?

The intelligence trait is real, not imaginary. Sure, it's a lot more complex than a simple, well-defined concept like mass. But then again, that applies to everything related to the human mind.

> [...] to justify existing social hierarchy.

What a weird attitude... Would you prefer that someone's position in the social hierarchy is even more strongly determined by their parents position or money? As was the case in medieval Europe?

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#344
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to "define" it in some philosophical sense to use it. Compare "mass". What is mass? Can you really define it? You can say what it does, but what "is" it? Well, nobody can define it, except in terms of the things that it does . Because those are all we see of it. We can measure it, we see those measurements let us predict other outcomes. So we can use our knowledge of mass in practical, predictive ways…

You can quantify mass identically for humans, for other animals, and for inanimate objects. Intelligence-as-measured-by-IQ-tests apparently only works for humans. I would like to see intelligence measurement procedures that work alike for corvids, humans, and digital computing systems. I don't know if they exist. It appears that ordinary IQ tests cannot be applied that way. My main grievance with IQ as "general" inte…

> I would like to see intelligence measurement procedures that work alike for corvids, humans, and digital computing systems. I don't know if they exist.

Of course these objective psychometrics exist, but it's usually only referenced in fields like information sciences, xenology, or speculative futures studies. The obvious reason is because IQ or g factor is only relevant as a barrier to entry in human societies for eliminating potential revolutionary competition against the higher incumbent echelons, pseudoscientific justification of persecution and political subsidy gerrymandering by fracturing demographics into enclaves of special interests to play off each other, or simply as a cultural shibboleth to identify peers for collusion and enemies for swindling.

To start with, there's metrics like the encephalization quotient which are still empirically based (read: gimmicks to support a pre-defined conclusion) curve fitting of anthropocentric expectations of how a genre of organisms should be judged relative to how humans perceive themselves in ability. Yes it's an improvement from IQ or g because it simplifies what was a constantly changing, completely opaque, and wholly arbitrary metric into something that at least measures one physically real property, namely brain volume. But I guess you could say the same about things like phrenology or any other quackery.

There's further refinements to metrics like the sentience quotient based on the density of computational matter or surface area of the I/O boundary of an organism against its environment. Even metrics like this still have incredible assumptions on the nature of intelligence as if we should prioritize the bandwidth or latency of interconnect, I/O, or memory among many other considerations such as algorithmic efficiency -- a whole other can of worms because that means you now need to define the relevant sources and sinks of information and that mapping essentially implies the "purpose of life" which is still a tricky thing to classify. Maybe it's the ability to minimize the time required to maximize the diffusion of an energy gradient? It's unclear.

And that's pretty much the crux of all this that has been stated before on this site[0]: "Metrics, even if not quantified, are always goal-oriented in providing an explanation or use."

Sometimes that use could be nepotism, mental masturbation to relieve some angst brought on by realizing a life wasted in pursuing nonsense like psychiatry, or maybe it's just to survive when the only source of funding demands you to tailor a patch of woven bullshit to mend the emperor's increasingly tattered clothes.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18017451

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can quantify mass identically for humans, for other animals, and for inanimate objects. Intelligence-as-measured-by-IQ-tests apparently only works for humans. I would like to see intelligence measurement procedures that work alike for corvids, humans, and digital computing systems. I don't know if they exist. It appears that ordinary IQ tests cannot be applied that way. My main grievance with IQ as "general" inte…

> I would like to see intelligence measurement procedures that work alike for corvids, humans, and digital computing systems. I don't know if they exist. Of course these objective psychometrics exist, but it's usually only referenced in fields like information sciences, xenology, or speculative futures studies. The obvious reason is because IQ or g factor is only relevant as a barrier to entry in human societies for…

Would you please stop creating accounts for every comment or two you post? This is in the site guidelines, and we ban accounts that do it, for reasons explained at length here:

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#346
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would like to see intelligence measurement procedures that work alike for corvids, humans, and digital computing systems. I don't know if they exist. Of course these objective psychometrics exist, but it's usually only referenced in fields like information sciences, xenology, or speculative futures studies. The obvious reason is because IQ or g factor is only relevant as a barrier to entry in human societies for…

Would you please stop creating accounts for every comment or two you post? This is in the site guidelines, and we ban accounts that do it, for reasons explained at length here: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> reasons explained at length

Which are actually these two fairly cursory "explanations" that are more arbitrary commandments rather than transparent reasoning:

> "Throwaway accounts are ok for sensitive information, but please don't create them routinely. On HN, users should have an identity that others can relate to."

> "HN is a community. Anonymity is fine, but users should have some consistent identity that other users can relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be an entirely different forum."

I do understand that this isn't a true public forum as it's hosted by a VC fund with the intention to draw in intellectually curious people, building up a brand through high quality discussions, and then monetizing the resulting social network by supplying capital to promising entrepreneurial-minded members of this self-selecting cohort in exchange for equity stake and company control.

Anonymity is the direct antithesis of consistent identity -- it's impossible to support both concepts at the same time. The only way I can think of that someone might see both as compatible is if they view YC as some entity that is to be trusted as an all-seeing benevolent moderator that seeks to keep participants protected from the scary strangers amongst the crowd with even scarier ideas.

The problem with that guardianship model you seem to embrace is that not only are the type of people drawn to the bazaar of faceless minds the exact demographic you seek to be winnowed from the chaff as golden gains of mettle and vitality, but in your attempt to weed with caustic principles you end up scorching the fertile soil and years later no fruit will bear.

As a suggestion to YC in general, I'd say it might be beneficial to your long-term success to transition into a fully anonymous forum instead of just becoming yet another incarnation of every other social media platform as the more canny devotees to open ideas realize the next exodus is right around the corner.

Identity is the path to the dark side. Identity leads to reputation. Reputation leads to consistency. Consistency leads to conformity.

You of course are free to ban me and the others who do not agree with the site guidelines. But when the time comes that you are left to face the withered crops from the diseased seeds you've carelessly sown, you'll remember that there was an alternative that you not only ignored but stamped out in careless spite to keep things as they are rather than the potential of what they could be.

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#347
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My IQ, perhaps, helped me see things most did not but it's the enthusiasm that keeps me going You need a sufficiently high IQ to seek out and achieve the higher things, such as productive sources of enthusiasm. Those with lower IQ will be less inclined to figure out how to become self-actualized.

That is unsubstantiated speculation. "IQ" doesn't mean "anything that makes a person ideal".

What is speculative about needing a high IQ to solve problems? This is simply a specific version of that.
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