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The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

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Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#341

Post by NeedMoreTea »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #326
eucitizenxxy wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People get shadowbanned on HN for using the the term that describes this phenomenon: neoliberalism. It’s exactly that: eroding of civil society while pushing the ideology that you can (and should) monetize everything. A sad development might I say.

That's not really neoliberalism, moreover, nobody is getting banned for that word. Neoliberalism is more of an academic, economic concept, it's not inherently anti-community, it just happens to be. McDonald's and Starbucks don't want to wipe out civic cohesiveness etc., but it just might happen in some situations wherein everyone ends up working for 'large corps' instead of local businesses etc.. The opposite politic…

Well, it is an economic school of thought, but you hugely under play the connection. Neoliberalism can't work without the abolition of community and promotion of personal responsibility. Community breaks down by disassembling any collectivist groups and giving them over to the market and the now powerless individual. Personal responsibility is often disenfranchisement - nearly all our freedoms came about through collective action and organised civil disobedience.

The personal freedom to buy your social housing (without building more), have a personal pension with individual charges (with no attempt to ensure "enough" pension or group benefits), the privatisation of community and state assets and on and on. The removal of community power by constraining the rights and budgets of local government, centralising ever more then privatising or closing in the search of market solutions and smaller government. At a higher level it enabled the rise of globalisation.

There was absolutely need to re-balance in the seventies and constrain the unions. Effectively abolishing them was perhaps too much seeing today's gig economy and zero hours contracts. Another example of personal responsibility! After thirty years neoliberalism appears to be a means to restore the pre-war gilded age inequalities whilst completely forgetting why the post-war consensus (social security, society and Bretton Woods) came about.

Hopefully Communitarianism will get its chance soon.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#342

Post by NeedMoreTea »

eucitizenxxy wrote: post #302
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Community died some time in the 1980s with the rise of "loads of money", and famous politicians stating "there's no such thing as society any more". It used to be that people would make a living then give something back in later life - either public service such as becoming a politician or joining one of the many societies like the Rotary Club that performs philanthropic acts. Now politics is a career, philanthropy i…

People get shadowbanned on HN for using the the term that describes this phenomenon: neoliberalism. It’s exactly that: eroding of civil society while pushing the ideology that you can (and should) monetize everything. A sad development might I say.

It's highly unlikely you could have been banned for just talking of neoliberalism. HN does seem to have a hair trigger for shadow banning newer accounts, meaning you have to use the self-serve unban link or occasionally mail them.

If you are criticising neoliberalism, depending on the conversation and thread, it's distinctly possible you may be downvoted to oblivion. That's a different, and disappointing, thing. :)

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#343

Post by sonnyblarney »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #341
sonnyblarney wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really neoliberalism, moreover, nobody is getting banned for that word. Neoliberalism is more of an academic, economic concept, it's not inherently anti-community, it just happens to be. McDonald's and Starbucks don't want to wipe out civic cohesiveness etc., but it just might happen in some situations wherein everyone ends up working for 'large corps' instead of local businesses etc.. The opposite politic…

Well, it is an economic school of thought, but you hugely under play the connection. Neoliberalism can't work without the abolition of community and promotion of personal responsibility. Community breaks down by disassembling any collectivist groups and giving them over to the market and the now powerless individual. Personal responsibility is often disenfranchisement - nearly all our freedoms came about through coll…

Not all unions are 'good' ... so abolishing bad unions was not 'neoliberalism' ... it was simply 'anti socialist' or getting rid of some of the bas parts of the system.

Government sector Unions for example need to be reformed.

And FYI 'personal responsibility' existed long, long before neoliberalism as an ideal.

Communitarianism fundamentally requires 'personal responsibility' as one cannot 'help the community' until one has 'one's own house in order' so to speak. It goes even further: Communitarianism implies that 'personal responsibility' actually includes responsibility towards the community.

My grandparent owned a large lumberyard and employed people fairly, and in their retirement, spent several days a week visiting retirement homes, playing music, entertaining, 'doing stuff' in the community etc.. That's communitarianism.

But yes - neoliberalism does require the 'breakdown of the community' in the classical sense. They would be happy if we were replaced with docile, human drones that work, consume, and don't have opinions.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#344

Post by NeedMoreTea »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #343
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it is an economic school of thought, but you hugely under play the connection. Neoliberalism can't work without the abolition of community and promotion of personal responsibility. Community breaks down by disassembling any collectivist groups and giving them over to the market and the now powerless individual. Personal responsibility is often disenfranchisement - nearly all our freedoms came about through coll…

Not all unions are 'good' ... so abolishing bad unions was not 'neoliberalism' ... it was simply 'anti socialist' or getting rid of some of the bas parts of the system. Government sector Unions for example need to be reformed. And FYI 'personal responsibility' existed long, long before neoliberalism as an ideal. Communitarianism fundamentally requires 'personal responsibility' as one cannot 'help the community' until…

Don't think for a moment all unions were good. A good selection were militant trouble makers thinking little of the good of their members. The miners in the UK came firmly in that category.

The Air Traffic union in the US seems, from this side of the Atlantic, much less clear cut. They seemed to be a middle class, white collar union. Reagan supported them during campaign, then after election crucified them.

Nonetheless both cases were the start of the neoliberal changes and the neutering of unions good, bad and indifferent.

I should have made myself clearer, I meant personal responsibility and choice as political catch phrase. It was the well worn 1980s selling point and justification of many of the changes and privatisations. Many of them in areas that were generally accepted as having a place in society, such as social housing etc. Which is not at all the same as real personal responsibility and civic duty.

My own parents did similar - neither of them talked about it much or felt any need to show anyone what good they were doing. They quietly did it as part of their beliefs, contributing to the community.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#346

Post by spicytunacone »

rainbowmverse wrote: post #115
romaniv wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very important point. Libraries do more than just lend books. They are institutions that preserve and promote knowledge and have certain values "built in". They also often serve as local community centers of sorts. Having cheap books available in Kindle store does not fully replace functionality of a library.

A newspaper interviewed a local librarian. The interviewer pointed out a lot of people use the free wifi from the parking lot after hours, and asked if that was a problem. "That's the whole point."

I've conducted many interviews from such parking lots. I would completely use the library more if they didn't block non-443 ports (though it's understandable that they do).

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#347

Post by wolf550e »

ajross wrote: post #134
geebee wrote: post #12

I'm largely in agreement with this Vox piece, but I think there's much more to say in defense of libraries as well. I have a friend who found a red envelope with some money in it in a book that he'd checked out of the library. He figured it belonged to whoever had checked the book out earlier, so he went into the branch and mentioned it. They said that they could find out the last person to read the book, but no more…

> librarians (at least in that system) deliberately avoided keeping long term records of what people are reading, to safeguard privacy rights. Are you sure that's true? I mean, my local library (like most, I'm sure) has a fully digital checkout log which keeps a pretty decent amount of state for active records. A pretty reasonable architecture, given the size (small) of the system, would simply keep this data around…

Yes, librarians deliberately destroy records to make sure they are not used: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/13/us-library-r...

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#348

Post by tooltalk »

wolf550e wrote: post #347
ajross wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> librarians (at least in that system) deliberately avoided keeping long term records of what people are reading, to safeguard privacy rights. Are you sure that's true? I mean, my local library (like most, I'm sure) has a fully digital checkout log which keeps a pretty decent amount of state for active records. A pretty reasonable architecture, given the size (small) of the system, would simply keep this data around…

Yes, librarians deliberately destroy records to make sure they are not used: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/13/us-library-r...

But that's only for ILLs. CUNY's collections aren't that big to begin with ILLs are even fewer, especially in big cities with large public libraries like the NYPL, BKPL.

I worked at a much larger library system in the same city and I know for the fact that most do need to keep such transactions for years, at least for tracking and billing patrons for books lost or never returned. After another few years, they sell their overdues to (debt) collection agencies for a few pennies on the dollar.

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