A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards • Hacker News Board

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#341

Post by corpMaverick » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 4:03 PM UTC

skgoa wrote: post #299

UncleEntity wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While that does simplify computers so that more people can use it in the short-term, it also strips away the whole purpose of computing, which is to empower people with a more advanced tool. Back in Sumeria they used to go on and on about how this newfangled writing thing would destroy civilization because it took the personal element out of interpersonal communication. Just because the majority of people don't con…

> Back in Sumeria they used to go on and on about how this newfangled writing thing would destroy civilization because it took the personal element out of interpersonal communication. I remember reading an old rant by someone (I want to say letter sent to a newspaper) who complained that the grammophone will destroy music.

We still consume music but we don't play it ourselves anymore. We are missing on the many benefits(i.e. enjoyment, meaning, mastery). Same with drawing, painting and many other arts.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#342

Post by snuxoll » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

Izkata wrote: post #261

mwcampbell wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cast your mind back to when you first encountered a computer keyboard. I remember hunting for seconds to find letters in this unfamiliar arrangement. How early did you learn to type? As an American born in 1980, I learned in first grade, and I don't remember it being a struggle. So maybe it's really important to learn early. FWIW, I'm visually impaired, so looking at the keyboard wasn't a practical option.

I've never learned home-row touch typing, but I have my own style that I learned while playing StarCraft when I was ~10 in the late 90s - you can't spend time hunting for keys if that means your army is getting wiped out. So while it may have been a struggle for me back then, it was for an entirely different reason. I too don't remember it, though.

I had similar circumstances, I started using computers at a fairly young age and basically developed what I call an "advanced hunt and peck" style. I knew where everything was, but for the life of me I found it incredibly difficult to learn to relearn how to type "properly".

This is actually why I use DVORAK now, the only way I could force myself to learn was to completely disconnect the letters on the keycaps from what they actually represented. It was the most grueling two weeks of my computing life, but it was worth it in the end. Actually, I've since lost my previous typing skills entirely - whenever I'm forced to use QWERTY for some reason I end up typing at a glacial pace, so there's the one downside (thankfully this isn't often, mostly when I pull up the console of some server through iLO/iDRAC to get networking back up so I can just SSH in instead...)

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#343

Post by Raphmedia » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

daniel-alex wrote: post #268

unethical_ban wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was the idea that single-clicking in the desktop is a select action, while a double click is an "open/navigate" action. It makes sense to me.

Until you have someone double-clicking on browser links (and other things) because that's how you open stuff in a computer, as I've seen multiple less-experienced people doing it.

I actually added protections in some of our internal software against that recently.

People (professionals with a lot of experience) would open orders or product sheets twice (two new tabs) and it created issues. So now, you can't double click.

Once you click something, it is disabled for a few seconds.

I still hear double clicks, but now it doesn't create any bugs.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#344

Post by terrywilcox » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

acutesoftware wrote: post #3

If you aren't actually creating content [art, software, serious writing, etc] then using a mobile is fine for just consuming and it isn't surprising that these groups don't know how to use a computer. It is sad though, that young people appear to be less computer literate in terms of creating content (as an overall percentage of previous generations).

>It is sad though, that young people appear to be less computer literate in terms of creating content (as an overall percentage of previous generations).

Previous generations? How many generations back do you imagine widespread computer use to go?

Jerry Pournelle was considered cutting edge for using a word processor to write as early as 1977. Adobe Illustrator is from 1987 and Photoshop is from 1990.

There haven't been a whole lot of generations in the 41 years since the Apple II was released (about 2 generations, given 20 years per generation).

I can tell you that kids from my generation (baby boomers) had almost no computer literacy. Most of us never even touched a computer until adulthood (if then).

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#345

Post by terrywilcox » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

acct1771 wrote: post #4

acutesoftware wrote: post #3

If you aren't actually creating content [art, software, serious writing, etc] then using a mobile is fine for just consuming and it isn't surprising that these groups don't know how to use a computer. It is sad though, that young people appear to be less computer literate in terms of creating content (as an overall percentage of previous generations).

Less literate in terms of creating anything .

This is true of every generation that has grown up with computers and video games.

It's also true of any generation that grew up with manufactured items.

Really, our ability to create has declined with our need to create. Who needs to make their own clothes these days?

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#346

Post by dorchadas » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:47 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #315

dorchadas wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any tips on improving penmanship? Mine has always been absolutely horrible, which stinks as there's lots of things I prefer to write out by hand. Most things, in fact, unless it needs to be electronic.

Learn a different script. Right now you know one script: whatever scrawl you learned as a youth. Pick up something else, preferably a print hand rather than cursive. There are a ton of options! Here are some examples: http://medievalwriting.50megs.com/scripts/scrindex.htm A print hand lets you focus on correctness. Once you have some confidence, if you like, you can tackle another cursive hand, such as Spencer: https…

I'll look into those, thank you!

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#347

Post by fireattack » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

cthalupa wrote: post #303

fireattack wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I find it considerably faster and easier to input hànzì on a smartphone than with a physical keyboard As a native Chinese speaker I find the opposite. >when the hànzì are presented directly above the on-screen keyboard It's basically the same for most of "proper" PC IME. They start to appear when you're typing pinyin, and then you choose with numbers or space (for first one). Showcase: https://i.imgur.com/gQGKw11.gi…

>you have to press some key (normally `enter` or `space`) to start "convert", and even another input to start choose between candidates This doesn't match my experience, and I just double checked on Windows 10 and OSX 10.13 - I do not believe this experience has changed in at least the past 7-8 years. I switch to Japanese hiragana input, and type 'sake', and 酒 appears as soon as I hit space or escape. I do not hit sp…

I believe I was not clear, but your description is exactly what I said.

* You type in "sake"

* Press space once, it becomes "酒"

* If you want to choose OTHER candidates (such as "鮭"), you have to press space again to show the numbered candidate list.

Please see this showcase: https://i.imgur.com/rXxjMRs.gif

>I do not hit space or escape or anything prior to typing 'sake'

I don't mean you need to hit anything prior to typing Romajis. But you need to hit it twice afterwards to get the numbered candidate list.

To be fair, on Win10's default IME, it does provide a predicted suggestion list before you press any spaces, which is nice; but for some reason this list is different from the formal candidate list, that it is not numbered and you have to hitting tabs repeatedly to choose from them:

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#348

Post by c4h8o3del » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 7:44 PM UTC

corpMaverick wrote: post #341

skgoa wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Back in Sumeria they used to go on and on about how this newfangled writing thing would destroy civilization because it took the personal element out of interpersonal communication. I remember reading an old rant by someone (I want to say letter sent to a newspaper) who complained that the grammophone will destroy music.

We still consume music but we don't play it ourselves anymore. We are missing on the many benefits(i.e. enjoyment, meaning, mastery). Same with drawing, painting and many other arts.

Speak for yourself.

I'd like to highlight that synthesizers are very easily available now. As for physical instruments... it hasn't really improved or worsened significantly in the last few decades.

There being less easily available music wouldn't lead to more people learning how to make it. Just people coping without it.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#349

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #333

WalterBright wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cast your mind back to when you first encountered a computer keyboard. Does an IBM cardpunch keyboard count? :-) Anyhow, I took a 2 week class in 8th grade to learn to touch type on a mechanical typewriter. It's paid off handsomely ever since.

I found that taking a few college programming courses was entirely sufficient to learning to type. (keep in mind, I had already written dozens of academic papers at this point, but it was the coding that really solidified my typing abilities...)

> a few

Yeah, but my typing class was only 10 days, one hour a day. It was a marvelous return on investment.

Also, it was on mechanical typewriters. You had to physically hammer the keys to make it work, making for a very positive impression on muscle memory.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#350

Post by chaoticmass » Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 10:04 PM UTC

nickserv wrote: post #9

Do your children a favor and get them a "real" computer with keyboard and mouse, instead of a tablet. I've found it helps with several things. For one, I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Also, learning to use a keyboar…

> And it may sound old fashioned, but making things too easy for kids makes them less independent and less willing to put in the effort required for learning.

I wonder if this makes older programmers better learners. For instance, I learned BASIC and QBASIC before I had internet access. When I ran into problems I only had the provided language documentation to help me and I was largely on my own.

Now when I run into problems I have many resources to help me, but sometimes there is no answer on StackOverflow or anywhere else I can find and I have to rely on myself to find a solution.