NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash • Hacker News Board

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#341

Post by jonhendry18 » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:35 AM UTC

jakobegger wrote: post #5

MBCook wrote: post #3

“[Driver’s] hands were not detected on the steering wheel for the final six seconds prior to the crash. Tesla has said that Huang received warnings to put his hands on the wheel, but according to the NTSB, these warnings came more than 15 minutes before the crash.” This kind of stuff is why I’ve lost all faith in Tesla’s public statements. What they said here was, for all intents and purposes, a flat out lie. Clearly…

Also, „hands were not detected“ does not mean that they really weren‘t on the wheel. Maybe someone who drives a Tesla can comment on how reliable the hand detection is.

The driver clearly didn't take any action to intervene, so his hands probably genuinely weren't on the wheel.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#342

Post by Robotbeat » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:36 AM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #216

stetrain wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So human drivers wouldn't crash here? Or a good, attentive, best-case human driver wouldn't crash here? Because those are not the same set, and it seems the former set has crashed into this particular barrier multiple times. I don't think it's acceptible that a vehicle with adaptive cruise, lane keeping, and emergency braking would hit this barrier without any mitigating braking or action, but the actual state of dri…

I think it's "rather unlikely" to the point of implausibility, that even the human drivers who have crashed into that barrier: 1) _aimed directly at it_ rather than glancing blows/swerving at the last moment, etc., and 2) _accelerated beyond the speed limit as they did_, rather than applying any form of braking, let alone AEB.

> I think it's "rather unlikely" to the point of implausibility, that even the human drivers who have crashed into that barrier.

So implausible that the barrier was destroyed just weeks earlier by a human driver?

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#343

Post by cmurf » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:36 AM UTC

Involuntary manslaughter usually refers to an unintentional killing that results from recklessness or criminal negligence, or from an unlawful act that is a misdemeanor or low-level felony (such as a DUI). (Wikipedia)

It's rather uncontroversial that this kind of accident falls under civil law, because there is some degree of liability involved in marketing a product as being safer than a human driver, but then fails in an instance where a human driver flat out would not fail: apples to apples. If the human driver is paying attention, which the autonomous system is always doing, they'd never make this mistake. It could only be intentional.

But more controversial and therefore more interesting to me, is to what degree the system is acting criminally, even if it's unintended, let alone if it is intended. Now imagine the insurance implications of such a finding of unintended killing. And even worse, imagine the total lack of even trying to make this argument.

I think a prosecutor must criminally prosecute Tesla. If not this incident, in the near future. It's an area of law that needs to be aggressively pursued, and voters need to be extremely mindful of treating AI of any kind, with kid gloves, compared to how we've treated humans in the same circumstances.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#344

Post by jonhendry18 » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:40 AM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #112

mymacbook wrote: post #27

Reading that initial report is terrifying. I am so glad the NTSB set the record straight that the driver had his hands on the wheel for the majority of the final minute of travel. Really makes me feel like Tesla was out to blame the driver from the get go. To be clear the driver is absolutely partially at fault, but my goodness autopilot sped up into the barrier in the final seconds — totally unexpected when the car…

> To be clear the driver is absolutely partially at fault I'm... not so certain. Why? The autopilot had likely exhibited proper behavior every time that the vehicle had passed that particular section of road prior, and if the driver was paying full attention to the behavior of the vehicle, he would only notice the problem around the 5 second mark. Five seconds, if you have no reason to be concerned about the vehicle'…

"The autopilot had likely exhibited proper behavior every time that the vehicle had passed that particular section of road prior"

The driver had actually reported to Tesla problems about that specific section of road.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#345

Post by outworlder » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:41 AM UTC

jackson1way wrote: post #30

Despite the autopilot failure, I find the battery failure quite remarkable too: > The car was towed to an impound lot, but the vehicle's batteries weren't finished burning. A few hours after the crash, "the Tesla battery emanated smoke and audible venting." Five days later, the smoldering battery reignited, requiring another visit from the fire department. Where is your LiPo god now? Batteries have more energy densit…

So, basically they need to improve handling of damaged batteries. There are procedures in place for ICE cars too. No one is going to be storing a car with fuel and a damaged fuel tank anywhere. The main advantage is that it is usually obvious when a fuel tank is damaged and is leaking.

Some Tesla batteries have caught on fire after collisions. None caused injury to car occupants. In one of the first publicized cases, the car even told the driver to pull over safely, and the fire only started afterwards. There are vanes to direct flames.

I've seen my fair share of ICE fires. They are not pretty either. We have grown accustomed to them, firefighters know how to handle them, and the car industry has fixed most of the early issues that caused fires. It can still happen.

The same will be done for car batteries.

I agree with the energy density argument. My Leaf stores about 1 liter worth of gasoline as energy. When we reach energy densities comparable to current fuel tanks, we'd better be much more advanced in this aspect.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#346

Post by jonhendry18 » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:42 AM UTC

freerobby wrote: post #267

ericpauley wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My vehicle (a Honda civic) exhibits this exact same functionality and behavior. (lane keeping, ACC, emergency braking for cars) They make it very clear the limitations of these systems. I'd say that in the 5 months I've owned it it's had this exact behavior (veering off exit ramps) 10 times. A simple jerk of the wheel puts it back on track, it's such a natural motion if you're paying even the slightest bit of attenti…

Tesla reminds you to pay attention and keep your hands on the wheel every time you engage Autopilot. It's one of very few legal disclaimers they show you all the time on the screen, and don't give you any way of turning it off.

And we all know how assiduously people pay attention to messages that flash up on screen.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#347

Post by pishpash » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:43 AM UTC

slg wrote: post #137

txcwpalpha wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is exactly why all of these articles recently about how "great" it is that Tesla sends out frequent OTA updates are ridiculous. Frequent, unpredictable updates with changelogs that just read "Improvements and bug fixes" is fine when we're talking about a social media app, but is entirely unacceptable when we're talking about the software that controls a 2 ton hunk of metal flying at 70mph with humans inside…

This isn't an issue specific to Tesla as all automakers are now making cars that are more and more dependent on software. So what is the right way to handle these updates? You mentioned a clear flaw with OTA updates, but there are also numerous advantages. For example, the recent Tesla brake software issue was fixed with an OTA update. That immediately made cars safer. Toyota had a similar problem a few years ago and…

Give me a dumb car. The software is not ready. Get them off the road.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#348

Post by buvanshak » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:43 AM UTC

megablast wrote: post #328

buvanshak wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company is this blatantly evil while still in a growing phase, I can only imagine what they would do once they are a established major player...

It is a car company. Their products directly kill over a million people every year. The injure 10x as many. Their pollution causes a similar number of deaths. They are responsible for so many horrible side effects, including dangerous city and suburbs to people taking up more and more space. You think this one crash makes them evil?

No, it is not the crash that makes the evil. It is how they handle it. And how they put blatantly misleading marketing out there, along with poorly researched features that may or may not have lead to overconfidence from the drivers along with half baked tech, that resulted in crashes such as these.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#349

Post by golfer » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:43 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #237

ploxiln wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All cars from all manufacturers are running 10s or 100s of times more code than they did 10 or 20 years ago. https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/39559/does-the-... This really affects the nature of the situation. 20 years ago, cars contained microcontrollers with a tiny bit of code which was thoroughly reviewed and tested by skilled professionals. Today, all cars run so much code, even outside of the enterta…

When the Toyota electronic throttle "unintended acceleration" accidents were in the news, the software was described as a "big bowl of spaghetti" but the NTSB ultimately determined that it was not the cause of the problems. It was drivers using the wrong pedal.

Wrong pedal? How about faulty pedal.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/20...

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#350

Post by pishpash » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:45 AM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #319

sologoub wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cars are special to the vision system. Wonder if the barriers can be modified to look like another car to these systems, but still remain highly visible and unambiguous to human drivers? Part of the overall problem is that these roads were not designed for autonomous driving. This is much like the old paver roads were fine for horses, but really bumpy/distractive to car wheels and suspensions. Overtime, we adapted…

Machine vision is perfectly capable of detecting these barriers, as well as LIDAR. The fault here isn’t with road design. The fault here is with Tesla shipping Autopilot without any support for stationary objects, AND their delusional and (should be criminally reckless) decision to not use LIDARs. A car without ABS or power braking is not legal to be sold today. We need to apply those standards here: anything more th…

Agreed it's gross negligence resulting from pure arrogance. Makes the cult of Musk so much less savory and one has to wonder how much crap there is beneath the shiny exterior in all of his projects.