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Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

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341–350 of 372 posts

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#341

This blog post from Whatsapp is almost 6 years old: https://blog.whatsapp.com/245/Why-we-dont-sell-ads (it was linked to from the WSJ article) Almost prescient is the final line: When people ask us why we charge for WhatsApp, we say "Have you considered the alternative?"

from the link

"These days companies know literally everything about you, your friends, your interests, and they use it all to sell ads."

I am not surprised there was a culture clash. I am more surprised that they sold to FB, and that it lasted so long with the difference in vision.

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm torn on this one. One the one hand I would love that extra privacy. On the other, I really value knowing if someone is in the stall next to me and how many people are in the bathroom. If the stalls extend to the ground how am I supposed to scan for legs? Someone could be hiding in there waiting to frighten me! I cannot use the bathroom until everyone has left it. Just how am I supposed to verify that some quick-f…

> how am I supposed to verify that some quick-footed coworker hasn't made their way in during someone's loud flush Most places with full-coverage stall doors also have occupancy indicators on the outside - if you go in and lock the door, it changes from green to red.

I'm going to need an internal panel indicating the occupation of each stall.

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The times I have visited the US I have always been disturbed by how little privacy I feel like I have in a stall. I am sure I have made eye contact with dozens of people in US airports at a time that is not appropriate for either of us.

Europeans just need to stop being so terrified of the human body and being such prudes. /s It's funny how Americans get endlessly bashed for being prudes about the human body, and then somehow on this topic they get bashed for not being big enough prudes about the human body. Here's why that is: Americans simply get bashed no matter what direction they go on any subject. It's done solely to make the person doing the…

What a strange thing to get angry about.

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you've worked in the mobile app business you might get that this could mean almost 0 in revenues. It could, but it didn't. It meant revenues in the tens of millions.

Yes, that's about right. Not much of a company, relative to the $17B he raked in because of their ad-value to FB.

I'd like to see how your company is doing if tens of millions of dollars of almost entirely clear profit is "not much of a company"...

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Messaging apps, like social media services need your friends to be on the platform for it to be useful. If you start putting friction into that process then the services are instantly not useful. Everyone of your friends that doesn't join makes that thing much less useful for you. You say "everyone" is willing to pay that. I'll tell people about an amazing app that solves their problems they are complaining about and…

Would agree with your sentiment, but Whatsapp itself is an example of a messaging service that relied on their 1$/year model and had around 200 million active users before it went free.

I wouldn't say they "relied" on it. It was not enforced at all (lots of people used it without paying $1) and they sold out to Facebook. It would have been interesting to see how things played out if they had stayed independent.

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#346
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right! The phone model of pay-for-use has made telecommunications available all over the world to all kinds of people. Yet, it might be worth contemplating a few details about that. First, it took decades to do so. During almost all of that period, phone use was very expensive for most people, making it something reserved for the rich. It's taken from 1876 to today for almost the entire world to have phone ser…

You are conflating the model with shifts in technology. The US landline infrastructure was really expensive on a per-user basis. Mobile was much cheaper to implement, and the shift from analog to digital audio drastically decreased the cost of call transmission. Those same digital technologies mean a regulated social media monopoly could be much narrower. E.g., we could split Facebook into infra and client apps, or c…

Mobile was also very expensive for a long time, and thus primarily reserved for the rich. Shifting from analog to digital was something telcos did mainly to lower their costs to enable them to extract higher profits.

So, you're right! Shifts in technology brought prices down to a point where they're affordable to most! That's something enabled by a model that inherently advantages the rich over the poor. But the economic incentives created and encouraged by history and the model are just a detail, not worthy of inspection or being considered part of how we got here.

Right?

As for your proposal, I don't share your optimism for regulated monopolies here. They're a wonderful model for basic needs that everyone shares and that little change will be needed to over time. This describes electricity, water, and in some cases data transport.

It's certainly possible that social media services to date have hit this basic level of common infrastructure. If so, I clearly just don't understand exactly which services that covers or how they're the same level of fundamental as water. Can you help me with this? I need to understand before I can figure out if dismembering Facebook into a publicly owned council-run monopoly is the best way forward.

Especially because this would also probably mean doing something to ensure other, non-council-run social network providers didn't spring up and replace PublicBook.

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#347
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are conflating the model with shifts in technology. The US landline infrastructure was really expensive on a per-user basis. Mobile was much cheaper to implement, and the shift from analog to digital audio drastically decreased the cost of call transmission. Those same digital technologies mean a regulated social media monopoly could be much narrower. E.g., we could split Facebook into infra and client apps, or c…

Mobile was also very expensive for a long time, and thus primarily reserved for the rich. Shifting from analog to digital was something telcos did mainly to lower their costs to enable them to extract higher profits. So, you're right! Shifts in technology brought prices down to a point where they're affordable to most! That's something enabled by a model that inherently advantages the rich over the poor. But the econ…

My point was that your apparent objection to the phone company analogy to finding ways to fund social networks was based in a false comparison. If you now agree your objection was wrong, and that social networks could now be funded in ways besides eyeball sales, then I don't see a need to pursue that further.

I honestly don't believe your "help me understand" routine is anything but syrupy and disingenuous, an online rope-a-dope. If you're actually serious, please demonstrate that by providing your own best guess as to a plausible split and your concerns about the model; I'll do my best to help you with that.

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#348
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm just not creative enough, but what is a better alternative? Let's say you have a subscriber model, but than what kind of world will it be where only the wealthy have access to these communication technologies and access to social information. Or you have a hybrid ad model with the ability to opt out by paying some fee. Than what kind of world will that be when privacy is a luxury item limited to how much yo…

WhatsApp had a subscriber model (99 cents per year). It was still very successful in India, a relatively poor country. I remember visiting villages in India, where people who are quite poor by western standards, still preferred using WhatsApp to other services. I think that reasonably priced subscription model, perhaps taking in account the per capita income of the country, could help preserve privacy while also ensu…

I don’t think many if any Indian people actually paid for Whatsapp. Most people overall didn’t pay for it.

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#349
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mobile was also very expensive for a long time, and thus primarily reserved for the rich. Shifting from analog to digital was something telcos did mainly to lower their costs to enable them to extract higher profits. So, you're right! Shifts in technology brought prices down to a point where they're affordable to most! That's something enabled by a model that inherently advantages the rich over the poor. But the econ…

My point was that your apparent objection to the phone company analogy to finding ways to fund social networks was based in a false comparison. If you now agree your objection was wrong, and that social networks could now be funded in ways besides eyeball sales, then I don't see a need to pursue that further. I honestly don't believe your "help me understand" routine is anything but syrupy and disingenuous, an online…

I agree that there are most certainly alternate means by which a social network could be funded. Subscriptions, pay-per-use, and public funding all come to mind. I don't agree that this invalidates my previous points about phone networks and their history. New technologies enabled prices coming down because a long history made it worth investing in. Nothing about those technologies or price reductions was inevitable.

I can think of several plausible ways to split up Facebook. The one I can think of that adheres most closely to the basic utility model would be for only the most foundational service to be handled by a regulated monopoly. That, I expect, would be a pseudonymous social graph where people can add and remove connections. Anything on top of that would be handled by third-party providers.

I can imagine other services that some people might consider foundational and thus desire to lump in with the above. Some might consider posts, walls, profiles, and groups part of it. Some might even consider chat part of the foundation.

The "online rope-a-dope" you describe is my attempt to avoid telling people that I am reasonably sure they are being silly. It's always possible that there's genuinely something I don't understand about the positions. It's happened before, it's happening now, and it will continue to happen in the future. It generally doesn't, but telling people I think they are being silly is generally not conducive to productive conversation.

Being over-the-top syrupy nice tends to go over better than pointed criticism, which tends to make people defensive. For example...

Under which set of laws would Facebook be nationalized in your proposal? American? French? English? Turkish? Saudi? What effect would this have on effects to combat fake news and hate speech? Whose definitions of "fake news" and "hate speech"? How are you going to make sure that users don't migrate to a new, better, and non-regulated-monopoly social network the way people migrated to Facebook from MySpace? Are you just going to take over that one too? How do you propose to ensure that client app developers with access to the ruling council don't use their position to push away other client app developers?

These aren't pointlessly detailed questions. They're ones that spring to mind almost immediately, and ones that any serious proposal that merited consideration would need to wrestle with. Some of them are major points of public policy which differ very significantly from polity to polity.

I would like to understand that you've gone through these questions and arrived at good answers. I want that to be true.

You're probably feeling defensive right now. A little attacked. Which is why I couched the whole thing in asking you to help me understand, because a person who feels attacked is not a person who is genuinely listening.

Re: Behind the Messy, Expensive Split Between Facebook and WhatsApp’s Founders

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's sad, given how smart he is, that he is unaware of this dark side of connection and being connected and of facebook in general. So he's either to wrapped up in himself to realise, or at least acknowledge the dark side of what he's doing. Or even worse, he knows, and is aware but just continues to do so

I’d be really interested to hear about what MZ is like from people who’ve worked closely with him. All of his public pronouncements seem to lack reflection imo (eg that letter to his child), but perhaps he’s limited by what he can say.

Here you go: https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/4/11/17221344/mark-zuc...
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